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That brings us to where we are today, at the bottom of the food chain, most of us only getting paid when we fly not when we are at work,

 

BS. If you're only getting paid when flying, then you're most likely a contract pilot, and if your employer is making you do work outside of the contract that was signed and you're not getting paid, then they've broken the contract and you have legal avenues to pursue (or the contract negotiated is too vague, in which case it needs to be more clear next time). If you're not contract (and I'd hazard a guess that 'most' pilots are NOT contract), then you're more than likely getting a base salary in addition to your flight pay, so yes, you are getting paid when you're not flying. Same thing with AMEs that complain that they're not getting paid to sweep the hangar floor.

 

I'm not saying people need to sell their souls. I've fought and won against employers over labour standards. There are basic labour laws out there and if people just held their employers to that, there might be a different attitude on both sides. I'd suggest that there are far too many employees out there that have no real clue regarding basic labout laws (which actually benifit them), and rather have simply a gimme gimme gimme approach to things...

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Pathetic is right! But who is pathetic? The owners for serving it up or the aircrew for devouring it?   It's just another way to squeeze a few more hours/dollars out of engineers and pilots. I know

I know most of the younger set and the many pedants among us will cry "Dinosaur!" but I recall, oh, so fondly, the days before the regulators decided that what was good for the airlines was good for t

If an employer wishes to implement an averaging scheme, he must comply with section 169(2) of the Canada Labour Code and section 6 of the Canada Labour Standards Regulations .   If the employer do

Not true Lunch box. Averaging means a company can work you 2080 hours per year with no overtime.Which is something I have no problem with. What I have a problem with is how some of the larger companies calculate the 2080 hours. If I come to work at 7 am and fly 30 minutes to a job site with a crew then sit until 18:30 then fly back to town with my crew I claim 12 hrs on my duty day. But my working time added to my yearly total is only 3 or 4 hours for that 12 hour day I was required to work. that is what I have a problem with.

 

Pay is not the issue.

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Pathetic is right! But who is pathetic? The owners for serving it up or the aircrew for devouring it?

 

It's just another way to squeeze a few more hours/dollars out of engineers and pilots. I know aircrew who work VFR in Canada who pull a 42ish day shift and have their boss tell them that a no fly day is a CAR day off while they are in camp! One of the companies i fly around work a one and one (Yes it's up North!) and shake their head at the BS pilots put up with. Other industries triple crew when compared to helicopters. Some of the skilled workers i fly around make $40/ hour with overtime, only work one week on, one week off and the world has not come to an end. It will only stop and conditions improve when we demand a shift length and pay scale that is appropriate for this day and age and our "profession". All these gloom and doom predictions of the demise of the helicopter industry if we should change the duty times is nothing short of fear mongering on the part of those who are stuck in the 1960's and have been abusing their staff for far too long.

 

But hey, it is done to us because we don't stand up and say no, because we don't have a collective [no pun intended!] voice. To many years of lowering the bar, each one of us facing management alone and hammering out a "good" deal for ourselves. The only thing helicopter crew are good at is screwing each other over (much to the amusement and benefit of our employers) and thinking that they themselves have actually benefited from it. If you hurt a fellow employee in putting yourself at a perceived advantage you have only hurt everyone including yourself but not many are smart enough to see that. That brings us to where we are today, at the bottom of the food chain, most of us only getting paid when we fly not when we are at work, no time off for family ("Hey you knew what you signed up for..." and what some "A" - whole once told me after i drove for a day and a half for a job that disappeared; "That's helicopters!" [no actually that's an owner and his wife with no integrity!!! and of course not a thought of any compensation for my time or travel costs]).

 

It seems there are two groups that don't want a helicopter employees association, one is the owners who have it pretty good, one employee doing the hours of work of two and the other group that is opposed is a percentage of established pilots or engineers who have enough experience and or connections to secure a good paying job (the majority of this group are the ones who have trampled on their peers to get where they are). Why should these people look out for anyone but themselves i mean no one looked out for them so F everyone else now that they are "making" it. But really they aren't, still away from home the whole summer and possibly more and unemployed with nothing to fall back on (of course there are exceptions) at a moments notice.

 

Yes let's join HAC or whatever they are called. Can you imagine? What a ludicrous suggestion! Sure i will join a a benevolent organisation that is made up of members who's primary interest is to enslave it's employees and let my concerns about being asked to work shifts that are too long and compensation that is unfair be known. Ha, ha ha, what a joke, how long do you think most of you would have a job? The person who made that suggestion (was it in this post or another?) is a complete __________________ (you can fill in the blank)!

 

There is an old quote: "Behind every great fortune there is a crime." How many owners have made a great fortune and have not fairly shared it with those who worked so hard for them and sacrificed so much to get them where they are today? Yes the "Boss" is such a hard worker (and some are) but most have gotten to where they are by not compensating their employees fairly to the point where most are embarrassed to tell their friends how "much" they make (no i drive a piece of cr4p car and vacation in Gull Lake Sk. because i like to fly under the radar). How many guys have i run into who have their "hobby job" while their spouse pulls in the big bucks and subsidises (in essence) their husbands boss? Hey guy who's wife is a Dr., Hey guy who's wife is a judge.... and on and on.

 

We can change things but that would take banding together and having a collective agreement and stop working for hours flown or getting a percentage of hours flown, what ever the case is and getting paid for being at work not just for the summer but for the whole year or at least making enough money to make it through the year.

 

just a few thoughts,

 

W.

 

I see the Owners are reading this thread!!!!

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Grasshopper not that I fall on the same side of the fence as Whitestone, I don't think all companies and management are evil.

 

However I think you are looking at aviations past with rose colored glasses on. I am in my fifties and have been in aviation since my teens, so I probably classified as a relic too. Maybe you do, but I don't think we should have to sell out soul to be employed in it. I have no desire to return to starting my shift in AprIl and finishing it in October with no days off and not necessarily great money

 

'Hybrid,' I guess selling out one's soul is all in the eye of the presumed vendor. You sound like a major player in the old "How much do you make? I gotta get that" game. My family nor I ever went hungry, I saw and experienced all of Canada and parts of the world I'd never have otherwise, enjoyed the thrills AND the chills, and NEVER begrudged anyone making more than me. I asked for and got what wanted and felt I was worth.

 

I acknowledge the inherent competitiveness in pilots, but largely deplore it. I guess when you folks get your way, you'll be out at the heliport bidding for flights from the union steward and licking his boots for the privilege.

 

By the way, put a few years in before you lay claim to the relic tag. I've been at it over 50 years and am still a young fella.

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Autorevs..I hear you,and agree but we are talking about actual worked and recordable hours. Duty day hours and actual recordable worked hours are two completely different entities. Example: If on shift from 7:00am to 7:00pm your duty time is 12 hours. If all you do is push a broom for one hour between 7:00am and 7:00pm and do nothing else during that period that is work related,you can only record one hour of actual worked time. This is my understanding. HV, care to comment on this?

 

Moi?

 

If that was directed to me all I can tell you is what I know has been decided in the past and what I think is fair myself. This is a thorny issue as it really does affect how people view how their own services are compensated for.

 

Please do not throw stones at me as all I am about to do is explain how it currently works. The title of this thread is a little misleading as "averaging" generally refers to 52-week averaging, where you work way more than "normal" in one period but then make up for it by working less at another time of year. This thread is only partially about averaging, as it has mainly focused on what constitutes actual time worked.

 

Labour Canada (now HSRDC) has previously ruled that if you are employed for a task you only need be paid for when you are performing that task or doing other work. How that has been applied to "piloting" is that you're paid to fly and if you're sitting around waiting to fly you're not working. If you're not flying but decide to weld, or sweep, or build, or whatever, then you're working and need to be compensated. Let's face it, this doesn't really make sense because, like so much else in our society, pilots (especially rotational ones) do not really fit any existing template. I actually asked an HSRDC guy if security guards were only paid when chasing a perp but he informed me that guards are paid to guard.... so sitting around for them qualified as work... Pilots are not paid to be on standby, but to fly... Once again, don't shoot the messenger!

 

Most full time employees in Canada work a "Standard Work Week" which consists of five days of eight hours per day. Anything more than this is considered overtime. Weekends do not exist in the sense that Saturdays and Sundays are no different than any other day under the law.

 

Averaging is exactly as it sounds. As Freddie remarked earlier in this thread, the company can require an employee to work 2080 hrs per year (minus stats and holidays) at straight time. This works out to 173.3 hrs per month on average. Therefore if you work 200 hours in one month and 146.6 in the next month you are even for the year. The helicopter business has traditionally been seasonal with people working what seems like every **** day from May to October but then having the winter off (or at least a reduced schedule).

 

It seems to me that what really burns people up is when they spend 14 hrs per day on dead alert at some bug infested ASRD staging, only to be told they didn't work that day or only worked the 1.3 hours they flew. I think focusing on recording as worked only what is flown is ridiculous. I favour an 8-hour day system. I might be at staging for 10 hours but I only record 8 worked for the day. I record 8 even if I only flew 0.5. On a weather day or a maintenance down day I still record 8. I think that works out in the end. To get to 2080 hours in a year you need to work 260 days minus stats and holidays so that puts you around 240 or less. Coincidentally a 28 and 14 schedule gives you 240 days worked (roughly) and even more coincidentally, a standard work week gives you about 240. Essentially you get one day off for two worked. This is a two way street as you still get 8 for days you didn't even go near the machine. I think it's a good system.

 

I can't speak on what other companies do but I have never seen a company begrudge a guy an 8-hr day for time in the field. I think employees on salary should be entitled to record 2080 on an annual basis so that their EI (if required) is based on that in case of a downturn. I think sometimes companies get very nervous when they see huge numbers coming in on an employee's work record, almost forgetting that with averaging they can probably eliminate those before overtime is a question anyway.

 

Anyway, that's the current system in Canada and I don't know of any perfect solution. Many pilots are home for 3 months straight in the winter and are still paid by the company, as if they worked 173.3 hours a month during that time. That's what averaging is supposed to be about and I think it works in most companies if not all.

 

HV

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Moi?

 

If that was directed to me all I can tell you is what I know has been decided in the past and what I think is fair myself. This is a thorny issue as it really does affect how people view how their own services are compensated for.

 

Please do not throw stones at me as all I am about to do is explain how it currently works. The title of this thread is a little misleading as "averaging" generally refers to 52-week averaging, where you work way more than "normal" in one period but then make up for it by working less at another time of year. This thread is only partially about averaging, as it has mainly focused on what constitutes actual time worked.

 

Labour Canada (now HSRDC) has previously ruled that if you are employed for a task you only need be paid for when you are performing that task or doing other work. How that has been applied to "piloting" is that you're paid to fly and if you're sitting around waiting to fly you're not working. If you're not flying but decide to weld, or sweep, or build, or whatever, then you're working and need to be compensated. Let's face it, this doesn't really make sense because, like so much else in our society, pilots (especially rotational ones) do not really fit any existing template. I actually asked an HSRDC guy if security guards were only paid when chasing a perp but he informed me that guards are paid to guard.... so sitting around for them qualified as work... Pilots are not paid to be on standby, but to fly... Once again, don't shoot the messenger!

 

Most full time employees in Canada work a "Standard Work Week" which consists of five days of eight hours per day. Anything more than this is considered overtime. Weekends do not exist in the sense that Saturdays and Sundays are no different than any other day under the law.

 

Averaging is exactly as it sounds. As Freddie remarked earlier in this thread, the company can require an employee to work 2080 hrs per year (minus stats and holidays) at straight time. This works out to 173.3 hrs per month on average. Therefore if you work 200 hours in one month and 146.6 in the next month you are even for the year. The helicopter business has traditionally been seasonal with people working what seems like every **** day from May to October but then having the winter off (or at least a reduced schedule).

 

It seems to me that what really burns people up is when they spend 14 hrs per day on dead alert at some bug infested ASRD staging, only to be told they didn't work that day or only worked the 1.3 hours they flew. I think focusing on recording as worked only what is flown is ridiculous. I favour an 8-hour day system. I might be at staging for 10 hours but I only record 8 worked for the day. I record 8 even if I only flew 0.5. On a weather day or a maintenance down day I still record 8. I think that works out in the end. To get to 2080 hours in a year you need to work 260 days minus stats and holidays so that puts you around 240 or less. Coincidentally a 28 and 14 schedule gives you 240 days worked (roughly) and even more coincidentally, a standard work week gives you about 240. Essentially you get one day off for two worked. This is a two way street as you still get 8 for days you didn't even go near the machine. I think it's a good system.

 

I can't speak on what other companies do but I have never seen a company begrudge a guy an 8-hr day for time in the field. I think employees on salary should be entitled to record 2080 on an annual basis so that their EI (if required) is based on that in case of a downturn. I think sometimes companies get very nervous when they see huge numbers coming in on an employee's work record, almost forgetting that with averaging they can probably eliminate those before overtime is a question anyway.

 

Anyway, that's the current system in Canada and I don't know of any perfect solution. Many pilots are home for 3 months straight in the winter and are still paid by the company, as if they worked 173.3 hours a month during that time. That's what averaging is supposed to be about and I think it works in most companies if not all.

 

HV

 

Well said! So, all you have to do is ask your employer if they want you to provide security for the aircraft and watch it while on duty. Then you would have the same status as a security guard.

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Well said! So, all you have to do is ask your employer if they want you to provide security for the aircraft and watch it while on duty. Then you would have the same status as a security guard.

 

Ha ha ha! Yes, that would likely work! You could just put it right on your work record:

 

1.0 hrs pre-flight

1.0 hrs post-flight

3.2 hrs flight

6 hrs providing security for helicopter

 

I can't see anyone being able to argue...

 

HV

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A great deal seems to hinge on whether or not the employee is "at the disposal" of the employer. If he is, he is entitled to be paid. Human Resources and Skills Development Canada has issued an Interpretaion, Policy and Guidline Part 4.1 which discusses this concept.

 

Part I 1(2) of the British Columbia Employment Standards Act declares that "An employee is deemed to be at work while on call at a location designated by the employer unless the designated location is the employee's residence.".

 

A compelling argument that waiting while on duty is considered to be compensable working time is provided by The United States Department of Labor.

 

If a pilot is working away from home he is likely to be deemed at his employer's disposal for at least eight hours a day. The pilot will meet the CARs definition of "flight crew member on call" or "flight crew member on reserve". In such a situation, the employee's time is not his own and he deserves to be paid for that.

 

All pilots should be employee pilots rather than contract pilots. Incorporation is an expensive and time consuming hassle.

 

Employee pilots can collect EI so it is vitally important that all of their working hours are properly recorded. Operators use averaging to their advantage and to the disadvantage of their pilots. These sorts of practices must be vigourously opposed.

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