Pilot Associations, Collective Agreements And Bargaining Agents

[MedMan]

Speaking of the small steps mentioned in my previous post:

Apparently Transport Canada has a varying method of enforcement/interpretation of regulations depending on the region or company. Why is that, exactly? Why wouldn't an association of pilots take on some of those perceived variations and attempt to standardize certain of the regulations that may affect them?

Some have expressed concerns about foreign pilots permitted into Canada to do the work of Canadians who are "under-qualified", or to address a perceived pilot shortage. Well, boys and girls, where is your submission to the powers that be regarding such? Wouldn't an association of pilots address the concerns mentioned in that post? It would certainly be a good starting point.

Somehow, I don't think HAC will take up your plight, no matter how much time you spend praising the organization on behalf of something or other. Snoozing and yawning through the exercise won't work either. Although, I could be wrong, and perhaps HAC is working on an equitable solution for Canadian pilots to the benefit of the companies they represent. I suspect there is a certain amount of snoozing and yawning going on there also.

And here's food for more thought: With the advent of drones and their coming prevalence and ease of use and operation, the companies will be behind the times still if they're not already investigating some form of drone activity for patrols, rights-of-way inspections, and other activities that may not require an expensive helicopter and its flight and maintenance crew. Or, perhaps they would prefer to have some of their customers jumpt ship to do the work on their own with a drone flown by the president's 15-year-old.

Where does HAC stand on the acquisition, application and use of drones? Are they in favour? Has any company looked into obtaining a drone for any of those purposes? If so, will they be hiring a 15-year-old with video gaming experience to pilot the drone for minimum wages and a shot at cleaning the gutters on the hangar roof during a rainstorm because the hose isn't long enough?

Is TC in the process of setting up any rules and regulations for drone use? If so, is there any pilot or company representation on Transport Canada's investigation/regulation committee for drone usage?

The future is here, boys and girls. Where is the representation to drag you all out of the flight and duty times (and other rules and regulations) set by certain of the fire control agencies in the mid-'80s, and into the 21st century?

No doubt many of you will continue to yawn and snooze your way through life, if I may be so bold as to answer my own question.

[skullcap]

Hmmm, tony robbins you are not. Why don't you look those questions up and fill us boys and girls in? Would go further than insulting us.

[MedMan]

Why don't you look those questions up and fill us boys and girls in? Would go further than insulting us.

 

This is why:

 

How cute

Have you ever heard the expression "Flogging a dead horse"

Here we go again

I wish I had as much time on my hands

Yawn

Correct me if I am wrong Fred but don't you work week on week off. What nothing better to do with your time maybe a little more work would occupy your time.

[hybrid]

MedMan

 

I am not sure whether you are aware of this or not? Out of all the people you quoted, at least 3 of them (including me) belonged to, and one co-founded an association called HEPAC. Do you remember them? Did you join that association? Did Fred Lewis join that association? If so, were you this vocal then?

 

I (we) clearly understand your desire to have an association, there just is not enough support in the industry. I think the other thing is that the masses are not interested in following Fred Lewis. If you really are that passionate about forming an association, then get on it. If you do decide to try, you will be facing an uphill battle and will have to put a tremendous amount of work into it. if not, you are just grand standing.

 

Best of Luck

[hybrid]

MedMan

 

I am not sure whether you are aware of this or not? Out of all the people you quoted, at least 3 of them (including me) belonged to, and one co-founded an association called HEPAC. Do you remember them? Did you join that association? Did Fred Lewis join that association? If so, were you this vocal then?

 

I (we) clearly understand your desire to have an association, there just is not enough support in the industry. I think the other thing is that the masses are not interested in following Fred Lewis. If you really are that passionate about forming an association, then get on it. If you do decide to try, you will be facing an uphill battle and will have to put a tremendous amount of work into it. if not, you are just grand standing.

 

Best of Luck

Correction, at least 4 belonged to HEPAC

[MedMan]

I didn't realize I was back in high skool. I am reminded of the petty cries of "Do you know who I am?" in El Lay when the doorman turned away people in front of us.

Fortunately,

1. I have absolutely no idea who Mr. Lewis is, nor do I wish to know him.
2. Mr. Lewis has made some valid points in some of his posts, as I'm sure many of you will agree.
3. I have no idea whatsoever who the participants/representatives of HEPAC were, nor do I wish to know them, either; however, had I been made aware that there would be a test, perhaps I'd have studied.

Unfortunately,

• at the time HEPAC was having a go with many of you, I was in a position that would not permit me to participate in any meaningful way;
• furthermore, I do recall with great amusement and some sadness the reasons given in many posts for not participating/helping out/slagging the individuals who contributed and devoted their valuable time to HEPAC;
• in my opinion, I believe HEPAC bit off more than it could chew by attempting to be all things to many people, rather than taking an opportunity to concentrate on achieving small victories, one at a time. However, since I was not in a position to become aware of what exactly was going on, it is, as stated, only an opinion.

For example, the recent petition to Transport Canada regarding flight and duty time concerns comes to mind - although perhaps that was not an issue then (I don't recall). Should the current effort come to naught, at least when some of you are spending your five days off without pay in a bush camp, you'll have something to think about besides how you're going to spend your unaccumulated leave when you make good your escape and finally return home.

I might add, again, that I have absolutely no idea what HEPAC achieved in its short tenure, but I do recall hoping that it would be successful in its efforts. I was extremely disappointed to learn that was not to be the case.

I retired from active flying back in the dark ages, somewhat after the successful introduction of the turbine engine was accepted en masse by customers. The turbine engine was the last meaningful revolution introduced in the helicopter business. The next one will be the introduction of remotely piloted vehicles.

For example,

• hydro line patrols - finished. RPVs will do the job better and more efficiently. No one will be subjected to inattentive pilots texting, listening to ipods or sniveling on the phone about their job. Texting on a line patrol? Seriously? Or was someone making that up?
• pipeline patrol - finished. As above.
• fireline mapping - finished.
• police helicopter patrols - finished. Why spend money on a multi-million dollar aircraft and provide dual pilots, expensive maintenance staff and facilities when an RPV can be plugged into a trouble-shooting module, diagnosed, and repaired by picking a component card from a stack? Since the things mostly don't land and night, and rarely do anything like landing in the daytime unless they're configured as an ambulance, the need is negligible for an actual helicopter.
• aerial detection - finished. Although, strictly speaking, not a function of a helicopter on a regular basis.

Fortunately for me, I will not have to deal with the ramifications, but here's only one some of you might want to consider - especially the younger ones in the profession - because it will become prevalent during their careers:

When your aircraft collides with one of those impossible RPVs, or has a near miss, or the RPV runs over you, where will the blame be placed? There's no pilot sitting in the drone. I'm thinking failure to see and avoid will be high on the list of causes, and probably number one in the causation factor by a deaf, blind, inattentive and dumb regulatory body that will be tasked to fill in nothing more than checkboxes on a final report.

I have had a very successful five careers in my all-too-short life. I anticipate that number five will last me for the duration, primarily because it includes, among other things, ample amounts of chasing sunshine, blue skies and younger women. Consequently, I have absolutely no desire to dedicate and commit time to start an association, especially since one isn't needed if younger and smarter individuals than me will, on occasion, take up issues and join together to solve their problems. I do support their initiative, notwithstanding the slagging that is likely quietly going on behind their backs.

I shall now sleepily go back to randomly checking the Remembrance Wall to see which old friends and colleagues I have happily outlived. See if you can keep it at least current, will you?

[redliner]

Where does HAC stand on the acquisition, application and use of drones?..............Hey , easy , I am a drone. Or I sure feel like one sometimes.

[hybrid]

I didn't realize I was back in high skool. I am reminded of the petty cries of "Do you know who I am?" in El Lay when the doorman turned away people in front of us.

 

Fortunately,

1. I have absolutely no idea who Mr. Lewis is, nor do I wish to know him.
2. Mr. Lewis has made some valid points in some of his posts, as I'm sure many of you will agree.
3. I have no idea whatsoever who the participants/representatives of HEPAC were, nor do I wish to know them, either; however, had I been made aware that there would be a test, perhaps I'd have studied.

 

Unfortunately,

• at the time HEPAC was having a go with many of you, I was in a position that would not permit me to participate in any meaningful way;
• furthermore, I do recall with great amusement and some sadness the reasons given in many posts for not participating/helping out/slagging the individuals who contributed and devoted their valuable time to HEPAC;
• in my opinion, I believe HEPAC bit off more than it could chew by attempting to be all things to many people, rather than taking an opportunity to concentrate on achieving small victories, one at a time. However, since I was not in a position to become aware of what exactly was going on, it is, as stated, only an opinion.

 

For example, the recent petition to Transport Canada regarding flight and duty time concerns comes to mind - although perhaps that was not an issue then (I don't recall). Should the current effort come to naught, at least when some of you are spending your five days off without pay in a bush camp, you'll have something to think about besides how you're going to spend your unaccumulated leave when you make good your escape and finally return home.

 

I might add, again, that I have absolutely no idea what HEPAC achieved in its short tenure, but I do recall hoping that it would be successful in its efforts. I was extremely disappointed to learn that was not to be the case.

 

I retired from active flying back in the dark ages, somewhat after the successful introduction of the turbine engine was accepted en masse by customers. The turbine engine was the last meaningful revolution introduced in the helicopter business. The next one will be the introduction of remotely piloted vehicles.

 

For example,

• hydro line patrols - finished. RPVs will do the job better and more efficiently. No one will be subjected to inattentive pilots texting, listening to ipods or sniveling on the phone about their job. Texting on a line patrol? Seriously? Or was someone making that up?
• pipeline patrol - finished. As above.
• fireline mapping - finished.
• police helicopter patrols - finished. Why spend money on a multi-million dollar aircraft and provide dual pilots, expensive maintenance staff and facilities when an RPV can be plugged into a trouble-shooting module, diagnosed, and repaired by picking a component card from a stack? Since the things mostly don't land and night, and rarely do anything like landing in the daytime unless they're configured as an ambulance, the need is negligible for an actual helicopter.
• aerial detection - finished. Although, strictly speaking, not a function of a helicopter on a regular basis.

 

Fortunately for me, I will not have to deal with the ramifications, but here's only one some of you might want to consider - especially the younger ones in the profession - because it will become prevalent during their careers:

 

When your aircraft collides with one of those impossible RPVs, or has a near miss, or the RPV runs over you, where will the blame be placed? There's no pilot sitting in the drone. I'm thinking failure to see and avoid will be high on the list of causes, and probably number one in the causation factor by a deaf, blind, inattentive and dumb regulatory body that will be tasked to fill in nothing more than checkboxes on a final report.

 

I have had a very successful five careers in my all-too-short life. I anticipate that number five will last me for the duration, primarily because it includes, among other things, ample amounts of chasing sunshine, blue skies and younger women. Consequently, I have absolutely no desire to dedicate and commit time to start an association, especially since one isn't needed if younger and smarter individuals than me will, on occasion, take up issues and join together to solve their problems. I do support their initiative, notwithstanding the slagging that is likely quietly going on behind their backs.

 

I shall now sleepily go back to randomly checking the Remembrance Wall to see which old friends and colleagues I have happily outlived. See if you can keep it at least current, will you?

Perhaps I am not very smart, or you are completely out of touch with the helicopter industry? Drones? Well if we are about to be replaced with drones, and we are going to be susceptible to colliding with them, I doubt an association will stop that technology.

I am still sitting on Viet Nam era seats with obsolete GPS's, so not feeling particularly threatened by technologically advanced drones at this point.

 

If you left the industry before turbines were introduced and have no intentions of re-entering the industry, you have no stake in the outcome. We do, so go back to your chasing sunshine, blue skies and younger women.

 

PS, I would like to look into the sunshine, blue skies and younger women though! PM me, maybe we can talk.

[Helilog56]

I didn't realize I was back in high skool. I am reminded of the petty cries of "Do you know who I am?" in El Lay when the doorman turned away people in front of us.

Fortunately,

1. I have absolutely no idea who Mr. Lewis is, nor do I wish to know him.
   
2. Mr. Lewis has made some valid points in some of his posts, as I'm sure many of you will agree.
   
3. I have no idea whatsoever who the participants/representatives of HEPAC were, nor do I wish to know them, either; however, had I been made aware that there would be a test, perhaps I'd have studied.
   

Unfortunately,

• at the time HEPAC was having a go with many of you, I was in a position that would not permit me to participate in any meaningful way;
  
• furthermore, I do recall with great amusement and some sadness the reasons given in many posts for not participating/helping out/slagging the individuals who contributed and devoted their valuable time to HEPAC;
  
• in my opinion, I believe HEPAC bit off more than it could chew by attempting to be all things to many people, rather than taking an opportunity to concentrate on achieving small victories, one at a time. However, since I was not in a position to become aware of what exactly was going on, it is, as stated, only an opinion.
  

For example, the recent petition to Transport Canada regarding flight and duty time concerns comes to mind - although perhaps that was not an issue then (I don't recall). Should the current effort come to naught, at least when some of you are spending your five days off without pay in a bush camp, you'll have something to think about besides how you're going to spend your unaccumulated leave when you make good your escape and finally return home.

I might add, again, that I have absolutely no idea what HEPAC achieved in its short tenure, but I do recall hoping that it would be successful in its efforts. I was extremely disappointed to learn that was not to be the case.

I retired from active flying back in the dark ages, somewhat after the successful introduction of the turbine engine was accepted en masse by customers. The turbine engine was the last meaningful revolution introduced in the helicopter business. The next one will be the introduction of remotely piloted vehicles.

For example,

• hydro line patrols - finished. RPVs will do the job better and more efficiently. No one will be subjected to inattentive pilots texting, listening to ipods or sniveling on the phone about their job. Texting on a line patrol? Seriously? Or was someone making that up?
  
• pipeline patrol - finished. As above.
  
• fireline mapping - finished.
  
• police helicopter patrols - finished. Why spend money on a multi-million dollar aircraft and provide dual pilots, expensive maintenance staff and facilities when an RPV can be plugged into a trouble-shooting module, diagnosed, and repaired by picking a component card from a stack? Since the things mostly don't land and night, and rarely do anything like landing in the daytime unless they're configured as an ambulance, the need is negligible for an actual helicopter.
  
• aerial detection - finished. Although, strictly speaking, not a function of a helicopter on a regular basis.
  

Fortunately for me, I will not have to deal with the ramifications, but here's only one some of you might want to consider - especially the younger ones in the profession - because it will become prevalent during their careers:

When your aircraft collides with one of those impossible RPVs, or has a near miss, or the RPV runs over you, where will the blame be placed? There's no pilot sitting in the drone. I'm thinking failure to see and avoid will be high on the list of causes, and probably number one in the causation factor by a deaf, blind, inattentive and dumb regulatory body that will be tasked to fill in nothing more than checkboxes on a final report.

I have had a very successful five careers in my all-too-short life. I anticipate that number five will last me for the duration, primarily because it includes, among other things, ample amounts of chasing sunshine, blue skies and younger women. Consequently, I have absolutely no desire to dedicate and commit time to start an association, especially since one isn't needed if younger and smarter individuals than me will, on occasion, take up issues and join together to solve their problems. I do support their initiative, notwithstanding the slagging that is likely quietly going on behind their backs.

I shall now sleepily go back to randomly checking the Remembrance Wall to see which old friends and colleagues I have happily outlived. See if you can keep it at least current, will you?

 

 

My oh my....aren't you a legend in your own mind.

 

Please feel free to indulge your self induced fantasies somewhere else than a helicopter forum....perhaps Penthouse would feed your self induced ego .

 

You're self proclaimed expertise of this industry is sorely lacking in content.

 

I was one of the believers and founding members of HEPAC....which was to represent flight (and support) crews of this industry through education, mentoring, and government funding.

Life insurance, medical, and dental for contract flight crews were also taken into consideration, along with representation for upcoming rule and regulatory changes.

 

We had a number of operators that could see what we were trying to accomplish, and many wanted to support our platform. But alas.....so much opposition, and lack of support nationwide from pilots and engineers, thinking they did not need that representation was what caused the association to fail.

 

The bleating of people like you Medman stated simply......I do not need someone to represent my position in this industry.

 

Not the phrase "I"....not we!!!!

 

Please feel free to note.....I will always reaffirm my beliefs and position with my identity, and also feel free to man up and tell us who you are.....but somehow I know cowards like you will always find a lame excuse to hide.

 

Bob Kellie

 

 

[pilot5]

 

I suppose one can safely assume you intend "corporate interests" to include anyone who has a financial agenda witth a corporation (i.e. shareholding, management income or such)?

 

Regardless, I don't think any reasonable person would consider it "slagging" to point out how many times the association *** untion *** bargaining agent flag has been attached to the pole, only to end up shredded before reaching the top.

 

Surely there are myriad subjects more likely to produce benefits to the readers and the industry than this tired, worn old shoe.

 

Although an old issue I have a feeling its not going to go away. I tend to think another mechanism association- union whatevere you want to call is a little like automation... a little is good, too much is not- non is bad( like now). much like that robot vaccume I though would be a good idea( takes care of it) until the rotty took a dump in the kids room and mr. robovac got hold of it and spread it around the house... Nuf said!! Little good, too much bad.

 

P5