Abs/avalanch Packs

[Freewheel]

Freewheel,

I enjoy some of the topics on this site because they bring to light some obscure points and rais awareness among its members. On more than one occasion, the topics on this site have been brought up in safety meetings such as carry on baggage. Please don't jump down kitchens throat. Let's make this a comfortable place to ask questions.

Respectfully,

R

I didn't mean to come off as jumping down his throat. Maybe I should have thrown an LOL in there or something. I noticed that it might have come off that way after posting and I apologize. I think I followed up with a useful, informative and constructive post...

 

Let's also consider the fact that he states the only reason he is asking is in case he get's ratted out (which insinuates there would be no other reason to ask).

 

IMHO this is indicative of the culture in our industry (amongst pilots and operators alike), so it is not a personal attack on Kitchen. This is also likely why we never get any of these issues with TC dealt with. We are an extremely competitive industry of stakeholders, wirking in remote areas, who are concerned mainly with self-preservation.

 

If someone else is hasseled it's not your bussiness right? If I get hasseled I most certainly will point out that my competition is being held to a different standard (as is my right) and use any means possible to demonstrate this. This would include photo's and videos posted by my competition.

 

This forum also demonstrates my point that in most cases pilots are very confused about what it takes to be compliant ( over very basic regulatory requirements) industry wide. Who's fault is that?

 

I think it might also be worth pointing out that referring to other's as Rat's may not be the best way to make things comfortable in this forum.

[R0T0R]

Good point Freewheel. I think I've mentioned before that all TC reps. should be on the same page then assist in continually educating pilots and operators.

 

I also agree that ratting out isn't the best term. In this age of social media and having a camera/video equipment in our pocket is easy to be seen doing questionable things. I strive to make all decisions with that in mind but, as previously stated, you can't know that your doing things wrong if you interpret the rules differently.

 

Transport, are you reading this? We want to comply, throw us a bone...

 

R

[Freewheel]

Now let's get back to talking about where people are stowing these avalanche packs and what is legal. That was the point of the forum wasn't it? I promise I won't be easily offended by anyone's posts. I hope you won't take offence to mine.

 

I have no idea who Kitchen is, but if I play the odds he's likely a standup guy who just wants to know what it takes to be legal. If we ever want to get to the bottom of these issues we need to openly discuss what is currently industry practice and compare to what the regulation actually states. You can't rely on guidance from your TC inspector.

 

Obviously some of you are stowing these items in the Cabin in dome cases, so how are you complying with 602.86?

[Helilog56]

Let's also consider the fact that he states the only reason he is asking is in case he get's ratted out (which insinuates there would be no other reason to ask). .

Really would be nice to think that flight crew are more concerned about the safety of their passengers and aircraft rather than worrying about a bunch of tattle tales !!?!?

[jullian]

Freewheel,

You seem to have trouble with transport.

I don't think that posting youtube videos is the correct thing to do.

If transport is picking on you, it is probably for a reason.

Maybe try and talk your TC rep.

[Freewheel]

Freewheel,

You seem to have trouble with transport.

I don't think that posting youtube videos is the correct thing to do.

If transport is picking on you, it is probably for a reason.

Maybe try and talk your TC rep.

 

And you are entitled to your opinion.

 

As far as TC picking on me, I want to be clear, we have never received enforcement action. Only a few minor findings. W generally do quite well at inspections and have been recognized as "transitioning SMS enterprise" since 2010 by TC.

 

Despite receiving what we view as new and extreme regulatory interpretations (that are not consistent with other regions) from high levels of TC, we have not changed our operations with regards to cabin loading. We continue I operate as always and will challenge any enforcement action that may arise.

 

If you think I haven't spoken to my TC rep, you haven't been following along. In a recent meeting with 6 TC inspectors, two agreed with me that the interpretation being handed down from their boss was not correct. One of these inspectors was my primary operations inspector. By the way their boss was on speaker phone; when I asked what he had to say about their views, he stated: "well it wouldn't be there first time inspectors were mistaken". This conversation was recorded. How's that for an organizational culture? The fact is most inspectors fear reprimand or professional consequences if they disagree with their superiors.

 

For the most part, I have always gad a good working relationship with operations inspectors. (And there gave been many)

[Freewheel]

Getting back on topic, since you can carry these items in the cabin under TDG if they are stowed correctly, then the only issue is how and where are you stowing them and/or how are you restraining them? Whether they are popped or not you must comply with 602.86 if they are in the cabin.

 

ABS bags go in the ski basket. Once they've popped they can ride in the cabin:-)

What about you Julian? Ever secure a pack sack in a seat with a 4 point harness passenger restraint an/or safety belt (to meet restraint requirements during takeoff and landing). Ever let a passenger carry a small pack sack on their lap or on the floor at their feet (during takeoff and landing)?

 

Having a clear and open discussion about what really happens in the industry does not make someone a rat. If I am wondering what's really happening, All I have to do is google to check and see what you're putting online. That's right I didn't post the videos or pictures online . In most cases the operators themselves did; I suspect in hopes of gaining views and publicity. I simply shared the links.

 

In most of the videos and pictures I posted, I also feel that the operators are operating within the regulations (as I am sure many would agree).

[Freewheel]

I assume by "I don't think that posting youtube videos is the correct thing to do." you mean the following the posts on page 5 of the Carry-on Baggage requirements forum?

http://forums.verticalmag.com/index.php?showtopic=21819&page=5

The only youtube videos I have ever "shared" (anywhere online) are on this forum.

I have never reported another commercial operator directly to TC enforcement. I have, however, sent photo's and videos to TC enforcement demonstrating Transport Canada's own helicopter cabin loading procedures. These videos were produced by the Government of Canada and posted online at Natural Resources Canada Youtube Channel. I also shared these videos in the forum.

I know I will be accused of trying to hijack this thread, but I am not sure you are fully informed. This forum has many pages of me trying to formally communicate with my TC representatives. While in some cases I may be direct and to the point, I always tried to be polite...

Also worth noting that some of my favourite helicopter videos and pictures are posted on this forum. Despite the fact all of these videos are from my competition, I am proud of the overall picture I see. I give you all a thumbs up for that!

Most people in day to day life have no idea what we do; these videos show the reality of helicopter operations in Canada. They think being a helicopter pilot is cool, but have no idea the environment and the pressures a pilot endures throughout his career. I see some of the best trained, most efficient and proficient pilots in the world conducting necessary duties in a very remote and difficult environments. Also, these are not fly by night videos that have been added by a passenger from their iPhone; many are well planned out and produced videos...one by the province of Ontario... I honestly believe, most individuals in the videos feel they were compliant throughout. everyone involved knew there would be people seeing it online.

For the most part they are conducting operations in a very safe and professional manner. I also see passengers that are so well trained that they are acting as essential crew (even in air taxi operations where they are considered passengers). Have you ever seen that in the fixed wing/airline world?

I also see a very well done Passenger Safety Briefing Video.

There is no doubt some of these operations are higher risk than most fixed wing flights; but this is what we were trained to do by TC licenced FTU's and our employers. This is also what we signed up to do.

I also see an industry which goes to great lengths to mitigate these risks (which fixed wing people clearly don't understand). Helicopter operations will always be riskier than fixed wing operations due to the versatility of the aircraft. No matter how hard the fixed wing people try to implement fixed wing rules to helicopter operations it will never work. It will increase the overall risk! One size does not fit all.

Sure there may be a few things in these videos that may be questionable, but that really isn't my business. If we sat around and picked apart any flight, I think we would find that none of us are perfect. You see, I really am not out there trying to bust other operators when you intentionally break the law. To me, that is TC's job. We've always tried to do our thing and not worry about what others are doing (until recently). What I am pointing out is that according to Ontario region, you are breaking the law and don't even know it....or could it be that they are mistaken?

I just think that we all deserve a clear understanding of what is minimum regulatory requirement over such basic issues. As pilots, shouldn't we clearly understand this??? I sit behind a desk most of the time these days; but I still get out. I know if I get questioned by a TC inspector about my cabin loading in the field I'll be ready with a response.

Ask yourself this: Could you explain how you were compliant with 602.86?
The pilots are the ones who get screwed when they claim you didn't load your aircraft legally. Just hope it's not after and accident.

My job is to be the liaison between my pilots and Transport Canada, so I try to get answers when a TC inspector tells them they can't load a purse in a Bell 206 Longranger.

[Kitchen]

I assume by "I don't think that posting youtube videos is the correct thing to do." you mean the following the posts on page 5 of the Carry-on Baggage requirements forum?

 

http://forums.verticalmag.com/index.php?showtopic=21819&page=5

 

The only youtube videos I have ever "shared" (anywhere online) are on this forum.

 

I have never reported another commercial operator directly to TC enforcement. I have, however, sent photo's and videos to TC enforcement demonstrating Transport Canada's own helicopter cabin loading procedures. These videos were produced by the Government of Canada and posted online at Natural Resources Canada Youtube Channel. I also shared these videos in the forum.

 

I know I will be accused of trying to hijack this thread, but I am not sure you are fully informed. This forum has many pages of me trying to formally communicate with my TC representatives. While in some cases I may be direct and to the point, I always tried to be polite...

 

Also worth noting that some of my favourite helicopter videos and pictures are posted on this forum. Despite the fact all of these videos are from my competition, I am proud of the overall picture I see. I give you all a thumbs up for that!

 

Most people in day to day life have no idea what we do; these videos show the reality of helicopter operations in Canada. They think being a helicopter pilot is cool, but have no idea the environment and the pressures a pilot endures throughout his career. I see some of the best trained, most efficient and proficient pilots in the world conducting necessary duties in a very remote and difficult environments. Also, these are not fly by night videos that have been added by a passenger from their iPhone; many are well planned out and produced videos...one by the province of Ontario... I honestly believe, most individuals in the videos feel they were compliant throughout. everyone involved knew there would be people seeing it online.

 

For the most part they are conducting operations in a very safe and professional manner. I also see passengers that are so well trained that they are acting as essential crew (even in air taxi operations where they are considered passengers). Have you ever seen that in the fixed wing/airline world?

 

I also see a very well done Passenger Safety Briefing Video.

 

There is no doubt some of these operations are higher risk than most fixed wing flights; but this is what we were trained to do by TC licenced FTU's and our employers. This is also what we signed up to do.

 

I also see an industry which goes to great lengths to mitigate these risks (which fixed wing people clearly don't understand). Helicopter operations will always be riskier than fixed wing operations due to the versatility of the aircraft. No matter how hard the fixed wing people try to implement fixed wing rules to helicopter operations it will never work. It will increase the overall risk! One size does not fit all.

 

Sure there may be a few things in these videos that may be questionable, but that really isn't my business. If we sat around and picked apart any flight, I think we would find that none of us are perfect. You see, I really am not out there trying to bust other operators when you intentionally break the law. To me, that is TC's job. We've always tried to do our thing and not worry about what others are doing (until recently). What I am pointing out is that according to Ontario region, you are breaking the law and don't even know it....or could it be that they are mistaken?

 

I just think that we all deserve a clear understanding of what is minimum regulatory requirement over such basic issues. As pilots, shouldn't we clearly understand this??? I sit behind a desk most of the time these days; but I still get out. I know if I get questioned by a TC inspector about my cabin loading in the field I'll be ready with a response.

 

Ask yourself this: Could you explain how you were compliant with 602.86?

The pilots are the ones who get screwed when they claim you didn't load your aircraft legally. Just hope it's not after and accident.

 

My job is to be the liaison between my pilots and Transport Canada, so I try to get answers when a TC inspector tells them they can't load a purse in a Bell 206 Longranger.

Purses on the West Coast are smaller than those in Central and Northern Ontario… Just saying!

[Kitchen]

Now let's get back to talking about where people are stowing these avalanche packs and what is legal. That was the point of the forum wasn't it? I promise I won't be easily offended by anyone's posts. I hope you won't take offence to mine.

 

I have no idea who Kitchen is, but if I play the odds he's likely a standup guy who just wants to know what it takes to be legal. If we ever want to get to the bottom of these issues we need to openly discuss what is currently industry practice and compare to what the regulation actually states. You can't rely on guidance from your TC inspector.

 

Obviously some of you are stowing these items in the Cabin in dome cases, so how are you complying with 602.86?

Thanks Mr Freewheel, You and Brother Freewheel run a fantastic outfit no fingers pointed! I'll Clarify the definition of "RATs" would refer to those "Extreme Dude's with Go-Pros that film and post" An 10 degree bank in the Mountains can be edited to appear to be almost inverted..