2 Hours Averaged ?

[Maury]

Here is a scenario that I can think of off the top of my head, Jim, where being a member of an association may be beneficial pay wise.

Firstly, if a substantial number of pilots - 50% - (I have no idea what a realistic expectation would be and that is why you hire someone that does that kind of a thing for a living and give him/her a staff and a budget and pay for it with dues of some kind. This has got to be done professionally) were all of a sudden in a professional association, I think a collective "HOLY CRAP, THEY FINALLY GOT THEIR ACT TOGETHER" coming from HAC would be heard across Canada. That simple fact alone may get some operators to think a little bit. Probably not for long as history has told them that we have tended to fold in the end. Bob and others have mentioned that although they had a pretty strong core of individuals with HEPAC, after a while they got tired of getting beat up by the naysayers and gave up. Who can blame them when you are making an honest effort to improve your industry not only for the crews, but for the whole industry in general and some of your own peers jump down your throat. It does sound like they got quite a bit done, all things considered. But I digress. The key is that right now, we are the easiest targets for the operators rather than if all of a sudden they were dealing with someone representing 50% of the pilots, they might actually go to the customer or the government and demand things of them rather than us for a change.

The next move would be to basically lobby the government - I know it sounds awful but that is how they do things in Ottawa - against foreign workers for example. When an organization representing 50% of the pilots speaks, it will at least give another side to the operators view of the industry. If there are no more foreign workers, then there may become a pilot shortage due to either endorsements or hours. If the customer has a minimum hour requirement, I immediately become more valuable. Or the operator can lobby the customer for a change and explain that they are unable to come up with the minimum hour requirement and have it waived. The various forestries would be the obvious first people to lobby as they are paying with your tax dollars. At the same time, they might want to talk to them about minimums and averaging.

As for general conditions, I am glad Jim, that you stand up to whoever about accommodations or conditions, though not sure what you mean when in the next line you say that you just put up with it, Do you think a tanker pilot would just put up with it? When times are tight, we all know that there is always someone that is there to take your place if you kick up a fuss. The customer, say a forestry officer, may be a little more hesitant if someone representing 50% of the pilots had a chat with his boss and tuned him into what the CAR's actually say about accommodations and conditions. Tough for a single pilot or even a half dozen pilots to stand up to the forestry when there are a bunch of guys waiting to take your job in a heartbeat.

You know Jim, when I read your response earlier, my immediate thought was "I wonder if I was completely clear in what I had written, because it appears that Jim has totally misunderstood what I said."

And now another comment. This topic seems to have garnered a little interest but there has been a noticeable lack of input from low time pilots. As a low time pilot, you are probably young enough to be technically savvy and so I trust that you have not disclosed your username to anyone. I know that I will not use my real name for fear of blacklisting. It is like living in bizzaro world. I would like to know what you young pilots think about what we have been talking about.

One other thing that being a member of an association has just occurred to me since starting to write on these posts. It is something that I have never run into myself, but know that it is a huge thing these days - bullying. And no matter what you think of it, berating people who don't agree with you is a form of workplace harassment, I would think. Or it may be that you are rightfully offended by comments like the brass pole. Not only the many female pilots in our industry but also the many of us men who respect those women. An association would enable you to talk to someone that will stick up for you.

[helicopterjim]

Where do I start?

 

Yes I am a bully ..... and not just because of the brass pole! I breate people a lot ...... but only because they deserve it. I can name hundreds of situations where I have breated people for the dumb #### they do ..... but maybe they'll learn something and not kill themselves when they go off by themselves. Maybe I should be nice and give them a trophy for being stupid but that's not what I learned in life!

 

Any woman that can fly is a pilot as far as I'm concerened!

 

I stand up for good living conditions but I also know that people in head office don't always know or understand that you have been given substandard accomodation. I find that workindg as a team with your employer you can actually make the place you stay better with a little (or somerimes a lot) of effort and also make a crew house a better place by pitching in instead of whining about how bad it is ....! However ... if they don'r see what you see then of course I'll spend a few bucks of my own to help out but after that ... I'm out! As for hat CAR's say .... if I used CAR's as the standard I lived by .... then I would have to flu by that standard as well. I'll say no more ....

 

I liked where I thought HEPAC was going but I do have to say there was so much bickering going on that I srood back because I perceived that it was going the way of the union. I feel for what Bob says because I know that's not true now. My apologies to Bob.

 

By the way .... my name is Jim Henderson .... and if that gets me blacklisted then it just means I don't have to worry about looking for work at places I don't want to work anyways!!

[R0T0R]

Your guidance helped me Jimmy. And if you change and get all PC on us you won't be any fun at the bar anymore.

 

R

[Maury]

So are you suggesting Jim, that if the conditions we are expected to live in are not right, we should dig into our pockets and subsidize the operator to make the conditions right, and then leave? I don't know why I wouldn't have thought of that. I must be an idiot.

 

Obviously, the CARs mean nothing to you. I know that for a fact, I have witnessed it with you. And as the CARs mean nothing to you, I am guessing the flight manual means nothing either. Isn't it nice to have all that power in that 214 you fly?. You can overtorque it til the cows come home and never cook the engine. Who knows what is going on in the rest of the machine.

 

I know exactly who you are Jim. I have met you a couple or three times, and each time left shaking my head. I won't say more than that. I think your posts have shown everyone that has read them, what kind of a person you are.

 

As for you Rotor, I understand how a low time pilot with stars in their eyes will think that the experienced pilot sitting in the seat beside him is next to Igor Sikorsky, especially if he has all kinds of great war stories to tell. I would suggest to you that you may want to find someone else to admire.

[R0T0R]

I will ad you to the email list when I need to make a decision...since I can't think for myself. Thanks Maury!

[Skidz]

Ok guys. I'm going to step in here with my moderator hat on.

 

Maury, you've made it clear you want to remain anonymous on these forums, and that's fine with me, but making personal comments of the nature you just did towards Helicopterjim, who's made his identity known, is unfair and unacceptable on these forums if you're going to hide behind your pseudonym.

 

I hope I won't have to intervene again. We almost have a civilized and constructive discussion going here. Let's not turn this into a slagfest...

[Maury]

Fair enough skidz, I apologize for any comments of a personal nature that I made to Jim or anyone else that may be offended by what I wrote. Because I am new to this I am not sure of the rules. Does it mean that that if I give my name, I can then slag anyone I want. After all, some of the comments made about Fred make my comments look rather tame.

[Whitestone]

Berating someone is a form of bullying, do a little reading on why people choose this type of behavior. It's a sad and destructive thing to experience abuse or observe it and not say anything. I think most of us cringe a bit when we see a bully taking it out on someone who can not defend themselves and who is more defenseless than a low hour pilot? In my opinion this is the lowest form of cowardice. It happens all the time and other bullies laugh, condone the behavior and the cycle repeats its self.

 

The saddest thing of all is that the abused fall into the trap that they were caught in, they adopt these character traits and become the abuser themselves.

 

There are certainly different ways of teaching or telling someone that their flying (or what ever) is not safe and that they can make improvements without calling them down.

 

W.

 

PS: Two thumbs up to Maury's post !

[Skidz]

Use you brains and common sense guys. It amazes me how people can contribute in a meaningful way to the debate one day, and then act in a fashion that pretty much obliterates any credibility they have the next...

 

Human factors eh !

[hybrid]

Berating someone is a form of bullying, do a little reading on why people choose this type of behavior. It's a sad and destructive thing to experience abuse or observe it and not say anything. I think most of us cringe a bit when we see a bully taking it out on someone who can not defend themselves and who is more defenseless than a low hour pilot? In my opinion this is the lowest form of cowardice. It happens all the time and other bullies laugh, condone the behavior and the cycle repeats its self.

 

The saddest thing of all is that the abused fall into the trap that they were caught in, they adopt these character traits and become the abuser themselves.

 

There are certainly different ways of teaching or telling someone that their flying (or what ever) is not safe and that they can make improvements without calling them down.

 

W.

 

PS: Two thumbs up to Maury's post !

This is probably the best post on this forum in a long time!

 

I could never figure out why berating a low time pilot seems to be a right if passage for some more experienced aircrew. When I was a senior pilot in a company I treated the low time guys the same as the other pilots I flew with. A lot of those low timers became life long friends.

That's not to say that if one of them is not safe or prepared to do a good job that it should be accepted. If they are not working out, then they should be shown the door. Most pilots that berate low timers are doing it to cover their own insecurity, at least that has been my experience.