Hoge / Hige Charts?

[T-rex]

Forum Members,

 

I was asked, and now am here for the great Cdn debate... When we as pilots look at a OGE or IGE chart with the given parameters listed on the side, is the gross weight given to be used as a guideline or law? I will give my two cents after I get some replies on here. (yes, I had to outsource this question elsewhere) I realize rules of airmanship, pilot ability, and given conditions.

 

So for arguement sake, your machine OGE Chart state that you can lift a 1800 lb load @ 6000 ft at 10C. Keeping parameters, in line such as bleed air, takeoff power, scoops/ fliters, etc. You know this load weighs 2000 lbs, you go and try to lift it, keeping all engine paramters in check, and the machine lifts it and you fly away safely?

 

Lets hear the feedback! Guidelines or Law?

[407 Driver]

I say...

 

HOGE / HIGE charts are a guideline only as they are not found in the "limitations" section of the RFM. Most aircraft have the ability to exceed the published HOGE weights legally, given optimum flight conditions.

 

...BUT W.A.T.S. charts and gross weights ARE a legal limit, and are typically found in the Limitations section.

 

( speaking about a 212)

[VERTICAL REF]

What 407 driver said - verbatum!

 

section 1 is the law, the performance section is just that - performance reference only!

 

the charts do not know if the wind blowing or not...

[407 Driver]

I've found the 350 charts to be quite conservative, the old Dog-Star should easily do anything the charts say, so in KH's case...was he actually operating over the HOGE chart for that Temp/Altitude ?

I do believe the charts are only a guideline, but if somethings breaks... A good Lawyer (??) could argue "But the manufacturer recomended........."

[skullcap]

Vewwwry careful with charts.

 

HOGE chart with pax can be considered the law depending upon operation and sops(heliskiing for eg), whereas on Astar the slinging supplement stipulates that the max load is what the chart reads or whatever weight the aircraft can HOGE with.

 

It is one thing to be a bit over a HOGE limit but do not go over max gross weight limit. We had a bad crash in the US and the FAA tried to pin overgross on us but was determined well under max although over HOGE, but who cares the aircraft with pax never needed OGE.

 

So your answer T-rex would be, sure if you can do it it is probably ok, BUTTTT, who is gonna follow you, I have followed guys who lifted the load with same aircraft I was in and I couldn't(wind, or maybe not looking inside). Guess who looked like the idiot to the customer and guess who was the idiot.

 

407D;

 

Those astar charts are usually a bit conservative until you get a 0 spec engine and working at altitude then you have to be a bit more careful, still much better the the kindling the jetranger has for oge charts. How are the 407 charts to work with?

 

sc

[407 Driver]

As I said, the Limitations section is the Law. I haven't flown a Dog-Star for about 4 years :up: :up: so forget what is written in that manual.

I fly a Bell 212 , so the WATS chart is the Law....case closed.

When the chips are down and the mountain conditions are unfriendly, we throw out the WATS chart and go to HOGE or even lighter.

The 407 charts are conservative, it will do what is published. We do tend to have engines that are +20C (MGT) better than spec though.

 

eg. 2,000 lb measured load, 250Lb fuel, 60' line, HOGE @ 7,800' +10 C, placed OK !

[T-rex]

Thanks gentleman,

 

Thats about what I got for info as well. The OGE/IGE Charts are recomendations from the aircraft manufacturer. If you so elect to go beyond these recommondations, you may get caught short! Yes, you can never exceed anything in the limitations section, without some sort of penatly, this section is Law! In a court case you might have a rough time defending yourself if you fly beyond these published recommendations.

The charts seems very acurate, as well give the pilot an idea of how much payload he can take to that altitude for that particualr day and conditions. (What client is going to argue with the flight manual??) At least we as pilots have some numbers to facilitate clients questions on altitude and payload, and be comfortatble with a 'number' given to us by the manufacturer.

[cap]

T-Rex------"What client is going to argue with the flight manual?"........I trust that was said with a large dose of sarcasm?

[T-rex]

Cap,

 

I knew you would read that!!!!! Waiting for someone to 'argue' that phrase, cause it NEVER happens.... :up:

[downwash]

Let's not forget that the ultimate arbiter will be the court you're tried in. Any half competent attorney is going to be capable of persuading a judge or jury that you failed to act prudently if you ignored guidelines published by the manufacturer. However valid the distinction between guidelines and limitations may be in our minds, I wouldn't want it to count on it being discerned, let alone accepted, by the court or a jury of my 'peers.'