Job's Job's Job's

[cap]

Ryan ----- to be exact, the company involved was a Winnipeg aviation firm. They owned an Airline and a helicopter charter firm. The engineers they hired were offered their Commerical F/W licenses at the F/W flying school that they also operated. After graduation from that they were offered R/W training and employment immediately afterwards by the same firm. In return they were expected to sign an agreement, drawn-up by the company's legal counsel, stating that they would remain with the company for two years and if they left before, would repay the company an agreed upon, pro-rated amount of money. One person wished to leave and consulted legal counsel. After many months and ups and downs, the Supreme Court threw out the agreement because it was considered to be an illegal agreement and what they termed as "indentured servitude". In otherwards, you may sign an agreement with some person or entity, but that agreement cannot involve that person being legally obligated to work for you or some entity against their will.

 

Leave that part out of the agreement and say only that the person shall repay you on such a date and then THAT is legal, but the minute you tie that repayment into making that person work for you in order to do so, then you have crossed that line of legality and turned that person into a paid-for "indentured servant" at whatever wages you so desire to pay. It's a fine line, so please understand 100% what I'm saying here. Can a company ask you to repay them if they so choose and stipulate when, how much and set ther conditions?........"yes sir", Can they legally obligate you to work for THEM while doing so at whatever wages?......."No Sir". As long as you satisfy the former, you may do that from any place of work that you so desire. Put even simpler, I can loan you money, but I can't legally make you work for me to repay that loan. If I could, I just bought Ryan as a worker who must work for me and nobdy else and I can pay you the provincial minimum wage if I want and you got no say in it.

 

This was an old gambit from many years ago and the first I heard about it was with Bulloch Helicopters of Calgary in the late 60's also. They would send engineers on the 205 course(which was the new machine to have at that time) and many came back and left the next day for other companies. This "contract thing" was dreamed up by others along about the same time to try and prevent the exact same type of thing happening all over. That's when the "seed" for all this crap was planted and those were the reasons why. This can be an ugly and unfair business Ryan, so don't EVER sign any legal agreement like that without running it by some legal counsel. The days of a person's "word" meaning something are long gone and took the so-called "gentlemen's handshake on the deal" with it. I've lived long enough to see both eras and I much prefer the former days.

[jullian]

batfink

I'm a little confused are you for or against the CAF?

[Fully Articulated]

If you're trying to say that the maintenance in the civil sector isn't as good as in the military then you were working for the wrong operator my friend!!!!!!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Absolutlely correct - that's why I don't work for them any more.

 

Don't forget that the civilian maintenance crews are doing what the military can't seem to be doing which is keep 40 yrs old S61's in  tip top shape while they're haulin logs off mountains all year long. That's no small feat considering they have to worry about making a profit at the end of the year!

Nope, Sorry, that is not even comparing apples to oranges, more like comparing apples to eggs. Specious argument that holds no water, seen both sides, Know better. Not a level playing field, non-starter argument. See many other threads and posts where this is discussed to death, not going to go there again as it is a waste of time and you wouldn't believe me anyway. But I know the truth, and I am happy with it.

 

Also, if you have decent hours and you weren't making a good living in the civy world,  again you were working for the wrong operator!!!!

 

Correct again, and as I said before, that is why I don't work for them any more. Military guys bringing to the table 3 or 4 thousand hours, hundreds IFR and night, with ATPL(H) and group 4 ticket in hand are bringing a gajillion dollars worth of experience to the operator at no cost, and IMHO don't generally get fair compensation for it. Not to mention (and I won't talk specifics) the dangerous and illegal activity I witnessed, and was encouraged, no directed, to participate in.

 

And oh yes, BTW 407, I only wore the 'Company stuff'; It would be dumb to try to wear goodies from another team wouldn't it? In fact once I understood the stigma deal I really laid low on the past history, but there was always somebody around to 'out' you.

 

Bottom line is it was a bad experience all around, it cost me big time financially and in other ways with what was a fairly sucessful carreer, I went back about six years by gettting back in the gang and turned down a $75K bonus when I first left..... Dumb move that I regret. Mid-Life crisis I guess. No matter, life goes on I'm happy in my work, and will be until the end. I learned a lot about RW aviation in Canada along the way.

[BaldEagle]

And oh yes, BTW 407, I only wore the 'Company stuff'; It would be dumb to try to wear goodies from another team wouldn't it?  In fact once I understood the stigma deal I really laid low on the past history, but there was always somebody around to 'out' you.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

In several European countries the ex-military background is something that go in the first lines of any resume. In fact many operators prefer former Forces pilots due to the better and longer training, discipline and experience.

Since they are permanently envolved in "peace enforcing" or "peace keeping" operations just about everywhere (former overseas territories and so on) its not that difficult to have a fairly decent number of hours a year.

 

Not to mention (and I won't talk specifics) the dangerous and illegal activity I witnessed, and was encouraged, no directed, to participate in. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

That is something that I never saw anywhere, inside or outside of the forces, what means that the companies I worked to were not that bad after all

Anyway they couldn't count on me for that...

 

-

[Helilog56]

FA.....Sorry to hear that your exposure to our civilian sector did not be a more positive one. I find it refreshing that you do not seem to harbour ill will towards the experience, but rather found it a learning curve in life. Good flying to you my friend.... :up:

[BaldEagle]

I find it refreshing that you do not seem to harbour ill will towards the experience,

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

The only reason why he cries every now and then is because of those 75K...

What a loss... Can you image how many cans of beer would that amount buy ??? :shock:

[Helilog56]

"OUCH" :shock:

[Over-Talk]

Fully Articulated, I'm sorry to hear about your experience in the civilian world.

That company is NOT typical of our industry. We are not proud of those characters, that's for sure.

Military and civilian are two different lifestyles, there are many fine professionals in each sector for their own reasons,

Sometimes it's hard to jump from one sector to the other.

The apples/oranges debate is a good one.....but it is just that.....two things that can't fairly be compared.

Occasionally an 'egg' jumps in to screw things up. I suspect that is who you dealt with.

I'm glad you found your happiness back on the other side.

OT

 

p.s. check with some ex CAF pilots here, they'll tell ya' we're not all bad guys.

[Frequent Flyer]

Ryan,

 

I use to work for the company boasting 150 hours of additional training. All I can say is bull#$%&. You would be luck to get 5 hours and a slap on the *** as you head out the door to your first 3D siesmic program. Granted this was a few years ago but I had the same line fed to me also. My advice is the same as many have offered. Dont sign anything and always cover your back.

[cap]

Saturnman ----nregative for a reference right now. I had one, but it's been too long. Check with "Canadian Case Law" by Carswell. Most libraries will have a copy and "Canadian Case Law" is staple of any Law Office......otherwise it's like an engineer trying to function with M & O manuals on hand.

 

 

FA----- the situation ain't new that you encountered in civilian aviation. Some of it is warranted and most isn't. Some guys come out of the military with an "attitude" that they and their training are somehow superior to the civilian training and experience. In the civilan world first you prove it and THEN you get the respect....not the other way around. In the military, you still get the respect because you are always outranking somebody somewhere and your rank demands it. As you stated also, comparing the two enviroments is not possible. I knew many who came out of Vietnam with some major experience who had never flown an a/c with even a hook on it and their first time in the civilian work was a humbling experience when they had to go to the guy with 10hrs out of flight school and ask him all the pointers and how it was done.....yet here he stood with 1,500hrs of flight time. Personally, not once during my career was I or have I been taught how to do an autorotation with float gear.......I learned mine the hard way having to do the "real thing" and was lucky enough not to put a scratch on the a/c. Ask me if I can do them now. Point being, neither group has a monopoly on excellent professionals and unfortunately your adventures in our world had you working for one of the "scuzz-buckets" that populate our side of the equation. That percentage has always existed and always will, but knowing some of the members of this site personally and the companies they work for, I can attest to the fact that you can learn something from them no matter what your experience or how fancy your training because they are consumate "pros" and would be in any enviroment, including yours now or mine many eons ago in Vietnam.