New Fatigue Regulations

[Bif]

For the record, I think the averaging agreements are perfectly reasonable given the nature of our work. Where the issue arises is when an employer tries to have their cake and eat it too, by (illegally) stacking the deck against the employee. Of course you'll never be ahead of an averaging agreement if on a given summer day you can only log 5hrs of your 14hr duty day on a fire, when the guy stuck at the hangar sweeping the floor can log 8hrs.

[SwingWing]

I agree with you Bif,  just to clarify my original post was referring to Engineers,  as CAR’s does not specifically address their duty day limits or days worked it seems to be common industry practice/ opinion that there is no limit for them.  

That is where the Labour code would take precedence if there’s no averaging agreement.   Even with said agreement no one can legally work 3 months straight in Canada,  That’s ninety 12 hour days straight.   I could be wrong....

OH&S and Labour code knowledge is somewhat absent in certain areas of aviation compared to other industries.

 

[Bif]

Oh absolutely. Engineers are getting bent over the barrel hard... I'm shocked nothing has been legislated regarding their work hours..

[SwingWing]

That’s my point,  it is legislated,  since it is not in CAR’s you would default to the Labour code.

 Administration staff,  parts personnel,  ground crew,  duty time not in CAR’s but are “protected” by code. Same for mechanics. 

[DGP]

I don't want to brag or complain but as a dreaded pilot/eng I kind of have to laugh when I hear about working long days.I can remember flying all day and doing 2-3 hrs of wrenching at night for weeks on end on a fire flap.We all know what goes on. Back in the good old days I would time out as a pilot and then spend a week wrenching . Then back to flying ...you get it We did it because we had a good time and were treated great by DNR. Not like that anymore. Too many rules and paperwork..MHO.

[SwingWing]

3 hours ago, DGP said:

I don't want to brag or complain but as a dreaded pilot/eng I kind of have to laugh when I hear about working long days.I can remember flying all day and doing 2-3 hrs of wrenching at night for weeks on end on a fire flap.We all know what goes on. Back in the good old days I would time out as a pilot and then spend a week wrenching . Then back to flying ...you get it We did it because we had a good time and were treated great by DNR. Not like that anymore. Too many rules and paperwork..MHO.

Yup there are too many rules and paperwork nowadays,  you know why?

Because your generation pushed it too far,  you blame the young guys,  but you pushed it too far,  people died, got hurt,  and/ or equipment got damaged,  insurance rates went up,  and if that didn’t put operators out of business the lawsuits did,  at some point along the way common sense was lost and you pushed it too far,  accept it.  

 

[GrayHorizons]

I thought it was because bureaucrats loved paperwork and hiring their friends/family to fill the spots to shuffle file and sort all that paperwork.

Dammit, it's really about the accidents? 

Lets ignore the obvious discrepancy of the year 2007, but both those graphs came from the same report....In general, you can see a gradual decline over the years....20 yrs in fact. Ive been in the industry for 30, So my generation has been a part of the decline, however slight it may actually be. 

So you may want to sling mud Mr Swinger and blame others, but you're comments dont hold much weight because there is no definitive line that can be drawn for one generation to the next. 12 accidents per 100000hrs down to 10 over a  20yr period  hardly seems worthy of mention.

 

[DGP]

Thanks for that GH and for the charts. Sorry to say that to get down to 0 accidents you will have 0 hrs flown...never going to stop them all.I have over 40+ yrs in and can say no one ever was hurt in any flight that I was PIC. Yes I do know a few good friends that got killed but thankfully it was only a few...3 in fact and I will not name names.Great guys that had a real ####y day. Nature of the business. I can't remember ever one that was mechanical...

[hybrid]

50 minutes ago, DGP said:

Thanks for that GH and for the charts. Sorry to say that to get down to 0 accidents you will have 0 hrs flown...never going to stop them all.I have over 40+ yrs in and can say no one ever was hurt in any flight that I was PIC. Yes I do know a few good friends that got killed but thankfully it was only a few...3 in fact and I will not name names.Great guys that had a real ####y day. Nature of the business. I can't remember ever one that was mechanical...

3 mechanical, you are one lucky hombre! I can think of 3 in one company, actually there were 4, I only knew 3.

[DGP]

I think I may have confused you...the 3 friends that died did not have mechanical issues.The only mechanical accident that I was witness to was an engine on a 205 blowing up on take off and it was caused by something that I saw before it took off.I will keep that to myself. I saw a lot of stuff in my day that could have caused  some serious s### but I will have to keep that private. A lot of guys have said I should write a book and I told them I will keep it for some good stories at the bar with good friends that are still kicking....no naming names.