The original "ORANGE"?

[Bacon Inbound]

Blackmac, next time you’re flying over in your hypothetical as yet un-invented automated super single ALLCAPS pilot jet, look down and tell me if you can see a Cuckoos nest.

 

[Blackmac]

BI:  Believe me, I can still see that you are still in there, aren't they going to let you out for asinine behavior???

Someday when you are bacon inbound a big fist is going to come when you're on final and punch you in the face, it's people like you, that give this magazine a bad name. Try and argue facts instead of hearsay.

 

Have Great Day and don't be so arrogant, even though you haven't earned it. 

 

[kiefk]

On 2/27/2019 at 9:38 PM, Blackmac said:

If the originator (expert) of ORANGE living in Thunder Bay had his way, with his ego and helicopter knowledge, it is a wonder that he couldn't convince the government to buy Chinooks like the Air Force has, and bring a complete ER unit on board.

Granted the AW139 has a flat belly, but how are you going to get the powered stretcher on and off in the snow or tall grass??? 

I am not disagreeing with your analogy, but sitting on the snow without the wheels touching the ground, makes the helicopter insecure and the blades much closer to peoples head, totally unsafe.

The AW139's can be sold by the government and a Procurement Process initiated for the private Commercial Operators.

The H145 can replace both the AW139 (Orange) and Astars operated by Hydro and OMNR. These can be equipped for medical purposes and or utility purposes.

With the advent of the Pilot shortage, single pilot IFR is available with the Helionix autopilot system.

Long term contract can be negotiated to make it worthwhile for a commercial operator and the banks. 

Once the new assembly plant is built for the H145 in Kemptville and with the DND H145M order there will be plenty of spare parts to go around.

 

Ego!? - I think you're just fishing for a bite here   I just tried to correct a few errors and open honest discussion (crazy I know right)???.... I am an expert only in the fact I fly the 139 for Ornge - that's it and neither did i think i stated anything different.

However kind sir, some of your points are either wrong or un-researched; most of which have been corrected by other members, but:

1. The 139 lands almost anywhere a skidded aircraft might, summer or winter.
2. The other aircraft you suggested are great aircraft but as far as i know, and again i only know what i know, they would not be able to operate from my base. We need a minimum of 3 hours fuel/range to be able to conduct Day/Night/NVG/IFR operations to carry 2 critical care paramedics to anywhere within a 150nm range of base without refueling.
3. The powered stretcher will not give us any weight penalty as we will lose associated equipment from the previous stretcher. This is the same stretcher used by the land services. When this may not work, as you rightly suggest, they have a scoop back board. This is the same equipment that would be used by anyone carrying out this task EMS/SAR/OPP/OMNR/Private.
4. A procurement process is required every time Ornge buys anything. A private company would not be required to be as transparent as the new Ornge is required to be due to previous public knowledge issues.
5. You cannot mix Ornge with OMNR as aircraft are required to be on stand by and available 24/7/365. This would not be feasible with mix use. Imagine if when you called 911 for a family member you were told the ambulance will come as soon as it finishes doing brush cutting first.....you would NOT be happy and rightly so.
6. There is no pilot shortage........we have more resumes than there are positions available. Plus TC mandates we must have 2 crew for 704 night / ifr

Apart from the points above I understand your frustration if you are struggling to make ends meet in the current market and for that I wish you nothing but good luck.

Always happy to be 'your expert'  

[kiefk]

On 2/28/2019 at 6:30 AM, GrayHorizons said:

to comment about scene landings.

The Ornge website details their requirements. the landing zone is on a stable surface such as concrete, ashphalt, packed gravel or grass and 150ft X 150ft

You're not going to find that in too many off road scene calls.

I also have issue with range comments, especially in the south of ontario.  Toronto as the hub can reach literally 3/4 of the provinces population in about 20 minutes. And if the weathers bad in toronto, it's likey also bad in london, hamilton st catherines, and up to ottawa. So they wont be launching anyways to worry about an alternate IFR landing. 

Hi Gray

I assume ( bad word i know) that this was written by someone at Ornge who doesn't fly and is just suggesting an 'ideal' site for someone else who doesn't know. There are numerous pictures out there of Ornge 139s perched on the sides of rocks in parks, belly deep in snow and various other places. The one thing against us is size; approx 55ft dia for just the aircraft so we're not getting in to every tight hole - but hey it's a helicopter so we can just go somewhere else . Anything much smaller and we wouldn't be able to get the medical equipment, stretcher(s), survival gear, Oxygen, monitor, pump, raft, TC reqd pubs and 4-6 people in.

Not sure what STARs coverage areas are going to be with their new 145s. H145 240kmh/651km vs AW139 306kmh/927km (euro specs hence not nm/kts)

It would appear that Ontario stops just outside the 400 series highways to you......Yes smaller aircraft may make sense in the GTA and surrounding cities but not anywhere else. That would lead to mixed fleets and parts and training and currency and and and.

If the weather is too bad for IFR then good luck in the traffic jam on said 400 highways as nothing will be moving 1nm/200ft.

Your "contradictions" seem to be from getting points mixed up. Powered stretchers are there to prevent back injuries of the medics and where not feasible there is a scoop back board. Staffing vs aircraft costs had nothing to do with fractions of MOHLTC budgets.

1/4 the cost of a 139  a 212 used to be charged to OMNR for fires (single pilot) for $3,500 hr and that was back in 2012. More Ac = more pilots (Blackmac says there's a shortage), more Ac = more maint, more maint = more AMEs (actual  shortage), more maint = more parts, more Ac = more medics. More AC, Pilots, Medics = more costs

Cougar, Bristow and CHL all have union collective agreements for their EMS/Offshore contracts and they're private...

PC12s are already busy enough doing from the North coast to Winnipeg to London and everywhere in between with an airport nearby. Helicopters do hospital pads, scenes and airports (IFR) where FW makes no sense or cannot service.

As for SPIFR speak with TC... also ask the US HEMS SPIFR pilots if they would rather fly a 2 crew H145/AW139/S76C++ or a B206/B406/EC30 IFR alone at 3am, 8hrs in to a 12-14hr shift on day 6......what would you like to have / how would you feel if that patient was your family member or you. Remind us all how many crashes do they (US) have each year due to 'for-profit' pressure.

BUT I admit wholeheartedly I do not run a helicopter company. I do not know the efficient cost savings that can be made from running a company. I do not know the solution; I am just trying to straighten out the few facts I do know. Ask 10 pilots / owners for an opinion get 12 differing opinions, we all know this

[kiefk]

On 2/28/2019 at 2:57 PM, GrayHorizons said:

just one example, should i google you more? 

Ooh look, I got Google too and my map's 4 times bigger than yours....  

[kiefk]

Here's a question:

How much would you actually charge per year for 1 helicopter;

• Must be available at 15 minutes notice
• Must be available 24/7/365
• IFR & NVG equipped and capable
• 150nm service area with no commercial fuel locations in between
• Staffed 24/7/365
  • Capt: ATPL IR
  • FO: CPL IR
  • 2 medics:  Critical care paramedics

Nothing too crazy, just throw out a rough number.......

[18speed]

2 hours ago, kiefk said:

Here's a question:

How much would you actually charge per year for 1 helicopter;

• Must be available at 15 minutes notice
• Must be available 24/7/365
• IFR & NVG equipped and capable
• 150nm service area with no commercial fuel locations in between
• Staffed 24/7/365
  • Capt: ATPL IR
  • FO: CPL IR
  • 2 medics:  Critical care paramedics

Nothing too crazy, just throw out a rough number.......

We would be looking at 8 to 10 million per year per aircraft to meet your requirement, when you look at capital, maintenance, crewing, overhead etc, these things don't fly for free. 

[GrayHorizons]

8 hours ago, kiefk said:

Ooh look, I got Google too and my map's 4 times bigger than yours....  

the question was about the high volume area and pouplation of southern ontario. Yeah I'm quite aware of how big Ontario is. Whats the population and requirement for trauma patients up there? dont dazzle me with numbers for patient taxi services either.

[GrayHorizons]

4 hours ago, 18speed said:

We would be looking at 8 to 10 million per year per aircraft to meet your requirement, when you look at capital, maintenance, crewing, overhead etc, these things don't fly for free. 

these guys have said it already, cost is no object and the orange budget is minuscule compared to the whole medical budget, so who cares at this point. That attitude is probably why I'm critical of Ornge. I have no problem paying more for a service that actually delivers and is run in a cost effective manner. Too many government entities don't fit that category

This is my beef. I dont feel it is the best bang for my buck. When I call a taxi, would I be happy to have a Greyhound show up and bill me double or triple of what i expected? would anyone be happy about that? 

So I vote for better coverage with more aircraft that cost less to run individually. including managing out of control wages. 

Who wants to be the one, or have a family member who gets declined because the limited fleet is busy? 

I'd rather see a smaller twins dotted in every major city across the whole province than some oversized cadillac model in only a few. Thats money well spent if its managed right. thats not selfish of me is it? Its not for me to decide this though. So I hope our government see's this too and adds this to their list of things to clean up. Its why I voted for them.

[Blackmac]

As an observer and Taxpayer, if a proper analysis was done prior, to the procurement of the of the AW139 and the PC12 by people that had an actual logistical background in transportation, in conjunction with the scope of the requirement from the Medical Branch there would have been a different outcome

From a procurement point of view, the request for (RFP) proposal must be fair to the public, achievable and by more than one entity.

If the procurement is slated around one supplier, it becomes a sole source contract.

I would love to see a copy of the RFP and subsequent evaluation.

Normally, prior to issuing an actual RFP, a letter of interest is posted on Merx to see what is available on the market.

From the list of responses from the suppliers, an actual RFP is formulated. 

As taxpayers, we all know that the previous government played games with our revenue like it was a monopoly game.

It gives you second thought on how honest are Public Servants are.

Politics are one thing Corruption is another.

IMHO