The original "ORANGE"?

[robottxt]

3 hours ago, Freewheel said:

In accordance with the Canada Labour Code it’s illegal not to pay overtime. Most private operators do,pay overtime, but it’s based on an averaging agreement over 52 weeks. So an employee needs to be paid OT when he works more than 2080 hours in a year (minus vacation, stats etc).

Perhaps the question should be: Does ORNGE operate under an  averaging agreement similar to almost all private operators?

if they are paying huge amounts of OT, then I’d suggest that managent Is not managing as efficiently as they could be. This would hold true for any manager in any sector. Paying  OT regularly indicates the justification for additional Human Resources and the hiring of additional pilots.

Oh sweet summer child.   What is work?   I know companies that do not considerer sitting on IA for 14hrs in a blazing hot gravel pit work.

 

[GrayHorizons]

This statement below from Blackmac is what I agree with. And with my opinion that Ornge is run poorly and not with fiscal responsibility in mind of the taxpayer, thats where I have issues. Whether my data is right or wrong, or my opinion is different from others, there hasnt been much fact checking by those who disagree in an attempt to soothe my opinion. Theres alot of posturing though. Mostly by the ones employed by the company I critique. And thats expected, but it also makes these people biased. I'm not biased, I'm not working for a company who would want this contract. I'm just a shareholder as an ontario taxpayer who wants my money spent wisely.

As I've said before, as long as the cost justifies the end product, I'm willing to pay up and man up. But I still dont see that as the case here. 

Open the process, remove the sole sourcing of Ornge, and let the bidding process begin. It will either win, or fail but at least the options were explored. 

 

"The only time any Canadian government should be taking work away from the private sector is when it's established that the private sector is unable to provide the service, after due diligence, on the part of the government procurement section,  having produced a statement of requirement issued by whatever department."

[freck]

5 hours ago, GrayHorizons said:

This statement below from Blackmac is what I agree with. And with my opinion that Ornge is run poorly and not with fiscal responsibility in mind of the taxpayer, thats where I have issues. Whether my data is right or wrong, or my opinion is different from others, there hasnt been much fact checking by those who disagree in an attempt to soothe my opinion. Theres alot of posturing though. Mostly by the ones employed by the company I critique. And thats expected, but it also makes these people biased. I'm not biased, I'm not working for a company who would want this contract. I'm just a shareholder as an ontario taxpayer who wants my money spent wisely.

As I've said before, as long as the cost justifies the end product, I'm willing to pay up and man up. But I still dont see that as the case here. 

Open the process, remove the sole sourcing of Ornge, and let the bidding process begin. It will either win, or fail but at least the options were explored. 

 

"The only time any Canadian government should be taking work away from the private sector is when it's established that the private sector is unable to provide the service, after due diligence, on the part of the government procurement section,  having produced a statement of requirement issued by whatever department."

Yet you are one of the biggest cheerleaders for a private sector company who are the worst for tours and pay?!? You're a special kind. Can't wait to read your non-arrogant @55 comment. You arrogant @55'

[kiefk]

On 3/13/2019 at 7:05 PM, robottxt said:

Did CHL pay overtime?  Does any private company pay pilots overtime?  Raise your hand if you've been paid overtime!!!!!!! 

Hey if you had a union and a contract then you'd be paid overtime when you exceed 2080 at work....oh no not the "hey let's all unionise" mantra again   

Q: Why do heli pilots have to wait until they get to offshore or EMS before they get one? Every pilot that flew EMS @ CHL got / gets paid overtime.

And Gray I've done nothing but provide facts, in fact the only one to provide actual, if historical, figures. I would assume the government did a cost analysis before they changed providers BUT I don't know, and neither I assume does anyone, apart from the politicians involved who will never tell. I've never disagreed with Mac's premise, just maybe his intentions. I'm sure he's a really nice person, in person.

robot - we operate 12 hours shifts and so hit our 2080hr CLC threshold after 173 shifts. If your company wont even pay standby pay for sitting on IA then maybe pilots should be looking at their contracts, CARs and the CLC a little closer and be more informed. We all know though it's down to interpretation in all 3!

I hope I am just providing a little of the other side of the story, with what little knowledge I have actually working here.

Great discussion everyone  but if individuals are unhappy with their lot then it's easier to blame others....Fly safe everybody

Edited March 15, 2019 by kiefk
typo

[Heliian]

Hour averaging is used by employers to not pay people overtime, it's designed to favour the employer and the employees happily agree to it.

You legally could not introduce hour averaging to a 24/7/365 operation as the intent is for seasonal jobs.

 

[WHODAT]

On 3/13/2019 at 7:05 PM, robottxt said:

Did CHL pay overtime?  Does any private company pay pilots overtime?  Raise your hand if you've been paid overtime!!!!!!! 

Yes, CHL paid O/T for over 40 hours worked in a week as per Canada Labor Code. 

 

 

[GrayHorizons]

13 hours ago, freck said:

Yet you are one of the biggest cheerleaders for a private sector company who are the worst for tours and pay?!? You're a special kind. Can't wait to read your non-arrogant @55 comment. You arrogant @55'

I'm a cheerleader?

 

mmmmk.

 

Rah Rah Rah...Gooooooo Team!!!!!!

[Freewheel]

On 3/15/2019 at 7:53 AM, Heliian said:

Hour averaging is used by employers to not pay people overtime, it's designed to favour the employer and the employees happily agree to it.

You legally could not introduce hour averaging to a 24/7/365 operation as the intent is for seasonal jobs.

 

My wife is a full time employee at a unionized  transportation company (that is also funded by the Ontario government) and operates 24/7/365. They operate under an averaging agreement.

Like our industry, Ontario Northland Rail is also federally regulated (and under the Jurisdiction of the Canada Labour Code).

[Freewheel]

Without some sort of averaging agreement, you would be generally limited to a maximum of 48 hours of work per week...wouldn’t you?

https://www.canada.ca/en/employment-social-development/programs/employment-standards/federal-standards/work-hours.html

Then what is the point of the CARs limit of 60 hours Flight Time in 7 days?

[kiefk]

57 minutes ago, Freewheel said:

My wife is a full time employee at a unionized  transportation company (that is also funded by the Ontario government) and operates 24/7/365. They operate under an averaging agreement.

Like our industry, Ontario Northland Rail is also federally regulated (and under the Jurisdiction of the Canada Labour Code).

But your wife's union, and by default she, agreed to the averaging though right? It wasn't imposed on them as part of their job description.

Is her averaging agreement something like this:

ARTICLE 9 - Hours of Work and Overtime

9.1 Unless otherwise provided, employees who are regularly assigned to work 40 hours per week will not be required to work in excess of 8 hours in a 24-hour period nor more than 40 hours in a week. Any hours worked in excess of 8 hours in a 24-hour period or 40 hours in a week will be paid for at the rate of time and one-half.

9.2 Employees who are not regularly assigned to work 40 hours in a week will have their hours of work averaged over a period of 14 calendar days consistent with the pay periods in practice within the Company and shall not exceed 80 hours in such 14-day period. Any hours worked in excess of 80 hours will be paid for at the rate of time and one-half.

9.3 Unless otherwise provided, employees whose hours of work are averaged will not be required to work less than 5 hours or more than 10 hours in a 24-hour period. Hours worked in excess of 10 in a 24-hour period will be paid for at the rate of time and one-half. Such hours will not be utilized in computing the 80 hours in the pay period.

9.4 When it becomes necessary for employees to work overtime, they shall not be laid off during regular hours to equalize the time. 13

9.5 Employees called or required to report for overtime work under this clause and reporting, whether used or not, will be allowed a minimum of three hours at prevailing overtime rates.

9.6 Where overtime work is continuous with, before or after, an employee’s regular shift, such work will be assigned to the employee on duty or coming on duty as the case may be, provided that the work is not of three hours duration or more.

9.7 If the duration is more than three hours or is not continuous with a regular shift, a spare employee, if available, will be obligated to fill the requirement for service. When spare employees are not available, employees will be called on a seniority basis to work overtime. 9.8 Nothing herein is intended to prevent the Company from requiring the junior available employee in the classification to fill the requirement for service.