Definition Of "flight Time"?

[Klipper]

Transport Canada wants to see airtime in the log book(skids up to skids down) Flight time is what is charged to customers (start up to shut down) there is nothing or illegal about this practise. All customers are ok with this and it is their decision on wether or not the A/C is shut down at each stop. What would be better charging 4 hour mins? They get away better doing it this way. Everyone else needs to realize this is the way things should be done and we will all be better off for it. How much fuel gets burned when you are idling on the ground for 5 mins? Who is paying for it? The customer should be not the company.

[cap]

Bottom line is that whatever the customer is charged for, they should be advise BEFORE those charges start. There are some customers out there who will in fact pay for idling time within reason. If that's the understanding beforehand and the correct flight time figures go into the various books, then I believe everyone has been satisfied........on paper. The question is.......does that actually happen in that way or does "creative bookkeeping" come into play?

[Charles W.]

" The question is.......does that actually happen in that way or does "creative bookkeeping" come into play? "

 

 

There was a time when a persons honesty was what determined his / her destiny in aviation.

 

Sadly since government drones are now outnumbering the worker bees and the only contribution they can make is paper work "creative bookkeeping " has taken over and is now driving almost everything in aviation.

 

How many wrench pullers now spend more time pushing paper than pulling wrenches?

 

And has all that paper work made us safer?

 

Rev. C.W.

[Klipper]

I agree with you 100% Cap. My customers are always asked if I shuld shut down and they know the clock is running if I don't

[Guest bag swinnger]

Klipper when I was working in your neighbourhood doing chart changes, the companies that I worked for did it the same way that you described, and there was never any problems with that. the operator sits in the front seat and kept as close an eye on the clock as I did. if we were on the ground more than three minutes it was unusual, if something was up, the operator would motion to shut down. as you know some flights would be less than a minute some twenty minutes up to seventy flights in a day.

[Klipper]

Klipper when I was working in your neighbourhood doing chart changes, the companies that I worked for did it the same way that you described, and there was never any problems with that. the operator sits in the front seat and kept as close an eye on the clock as I did.  if we were on the ground more than three minutes it was unusual, if something was up, the operator would motion to shut down.  as you know some flights would be less than a minute some twenty minutes up to seventy flights in a day.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thank You finally someone from the real world :shock:

[Blackmac]

Klipper: I'm still finding a hard time to understand your so called problem with flight time vs air time and the definitions.

 

The hourly rate of any helicopter is based on all it's cost to operate that machine and that is why it is called air time and in all honesty is what you should be charging the customer.

 

TC does not enter into the picture as I stated before and if I was doing an audit, I would let your customer know.

 

If you think I'm fooling and if I new you better, I could tell you about an operator that billed flight time and entered air time in his log books. He basically screwed the canadian government for over three million dollars over a five year period, of which you are part. Do you remeber being kissed????

 

I think this thing is being beaten to death, but be forwarned your analogy would never stand up in court.

 

Remeber your profit margin is incorporated in your hourly rate which is based on your operating cost, set by you.

 

What gives you the right to basically add a surcharge.

 

IMHO, dishonest and probably why end users develope a low opinion of some helicopter operators.

 

Cheers, Don

 

PS: The only thing I can say about your customer, is, he needs his head read or he is not paying the bills.

 

Do as you wish.

 

I just remembered something, if you are bidding on a contract and you quote your hourly rate, which is based on air time and you actually intend to charge flight time, you have taken a contract under false pretences. Sounds like a certain down east company.

[Klipper]

Fair enough, Blackmac we will let this die now. But the company

I work for and many others around all do the same thing there is nothing illegal or imoral about it. As for component times we have brought it before transport and they want airtime in the logbooks not flight time.

[cap]

Sorry, but I see no "illegalities" here at all that would stand up in any court. The customer in question has agreed to being charged for whatever the idling time is upon or before commencement of said contract. The actual flight time is logged in all Journeys and Tech Logs. The former is agreed upon and is legal arrangement between two parties and the latter records all necessary and regulatory times in Journey Log Books and Tech Logs for component and A/F histories/scheduled inspections. I also see nothing illlegal, unethical, immoral, "under-handed" or "sneaky" in the above situation. This EXACT scenario was "run-by" MoT Inspectors at their Pacific Region HQ in 2000 by Yours Truly and I was informed there was no problem that they could see........IF it occurred in EXACTLY that way. If the rules have changed pursuant to that date, please advise.

 

As a sidenote, I must let the engine run for 2 minutes before shutting down anyway, so for me, the first two minutes would happen anyway if the client asked me to shut down........and they therefore get that first 2 minutes for "free". Unless told to do otherwise, I will continue to not charge for something that would take place anyway whether the client wanted it or not.

[Klipper]

Sorry, but I see no "illegalities" here at all that would stand up in any court. The customer in question has agreed to being charged for whatever the idling time is upon or before commencement of said contract. The actual flight time is logged in all Journeys and Tech Logs.  The former is agreed upon and is legal arrangement between two parties and the latter records all necessary and regulatory times in Journey Log Books and Tech Logs for component and A/F histories/scheduled inspections. I also see nothing illlegal, unethical, immoral, "under-handed" or "sneaky" in the above situation. This EXACT scenario was "run-by"  MoT Inspectors at their Pacific Region HQ in 2000 by Yours Truly and I was informed there was no problem that they could see........IF it occurred in EXACTLY that way. If the rules have changed pursuant to that date, please advise.

 

As a sidenote, I must let the engine run for 2 minutes before shutting down anyway, so for me, the first two minutes would happen anyway if the client asked me to shut down........and they therefore get that first 2 minutes for "free". Unless told to do otherwise, I will continue to not charge for something that would take place anyway whether the client wanted it or not.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Thank you Cap, I agree with you on the start up of the machine i never charge the customer for the start or the shutdown. But sometimes we hop to 50 different wells in a flight, this adds up to a lot of idling, that we charge them for. However the actual airtime goes in the journey log. Anybody that is recording that flight time in thier log book is doing so unecessarily, and thus losing hours between inspections.