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New Fire Rules...


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Fatigue and stress are two of the biggest factors that cause accidents.

 

Chances are there will be a pile of PO'd tired boys/gals out there.

That in its self will bring the accident rate up.

 

Now the solution is for the high time folks to say, "shove it" to the ops department.

 

This brings on part two. You now have a pile of inexperienced fellers/gals on site.

That is usaully good for a few more prangs.

 

If it is a busy season, it will be interesting to see if the accident rate goes up!

 

In a market that is now controlled by the insurance companies, one would think that common sense will prevail.

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There is no way any company is going to let there crews stay in tents when good accommodations are available and push these kind of safety issues.

 

These were the exact words from my operations manager, who stated that $150 dollars in motel rooms, were no big deal for the company to swallow when there crews were flying snowmans and proprer crew rest, showers, meals etc and suitable maintenence conditions were required.

When I started this topic, this is what I was looking for. So far this has been the only one that has stated his company would not "go along.."

 

I would hope that most ops managers would be of the same opinon as that's where it will stop. As drivers we all know we don't want to "be there" in the tent. But are the companies running to scared to stand up to forestry?

 

There will always be someone who will stay, when the rest say no. Then what happens? Forestry says you are all a bunch of wusses?

 

an accommodation that is suitable for the site and season, is subject to a minimal level of noise and provides adequate comfort and protection from the elements"

 

Who decides? Some young keener forestry type that doesn't want to be responsible to answer why the crews are flying to thier accomodations? We all know there are plenty of those responsibile for a fire, that will think that the back end of the gravel pit is a place of quite, and abequate comfort and protection....

 

Lots of good feedback - let's all decide to hold the line and not be afraid of bringing down the wrath of the "The Incident Commander, Air Operations Branch Director, Air Tactical Group Supervisor or the Wildfire Management Area Duty Officer" :lol::lol:

 

United, we stay in Motels - Divided, we don't...

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I am with Vertical Reference on this one.....in the machine and off to the nearest motel, its a no brainer...

 

I am sure my office wont have a problem with it if push came to shove regarding ferry time and expences.

 

A quiet room to sleep in is very important to me, and I am not about to step back in time thats for sure.

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You have to make sure you get a firm start time for the next day (have your engineer there to witness the conversation with forestry) and make sure you have swapped contact numbers, cell phones etc. so there is no misunderstanding.

 

Enjoy your hot shower and clean sheets...

 

 

Those that want to stay in tents can fill there boots! This is a non event for the bigger aircraft.

 

 

You never, ever unload your medium until you find out where you are staying for the night...make it your decision.

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I've already stated my case, but I notice that something is missing from the quote from the AFS Handbook...........I see no mention of what is considered or what will be supplied for proper washroom facilities. I realize also that there would have to be a grand debate at some point on the word "proper"(dripping sarcasm intended). In past years with AFS, I've did the 2 - 45gal drums of cold "fresh" water with a coating of dead horseflies on the surface, TWO plastic washbasins for 350 men.......and if you want a bath "run down the hill and jump into the lake"(Buffalo Hills Fire, south of High Level, AB - '81). Then they "modernized"...... brought in (by me) portable showers and allotted each person 4gals of water for a shower. That ONE shower did 176 personnel, so sign your name and wait.........or run down to the lake/river and jump in again if you can't wait (30miles north of Ft. Chip, AB - '94). On each third evening, the only a/c flying was ME and my grinning, sweaty, dirty engineer disappearing over the horizon to OUR definition of the word "proper. It's a very insignificant word...."proper"......but I'd be interested in what AFS, CARS and the industry-in-general these days defines as "proper"?

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Cap, best I could find was under "hygiene", no mention of "bathroom or washroom" etc.

 

Mandatory Rest Periods

All pilots must have, excluding meal breaks, a minimum of eight (8) hours of prone rest between the end of one (1) duty period and the start of the next.

 

Before starting the next duty day, the pilot must be given sufficient time to allow for 8 hours of prone rest, travel to and from the workplace, meal breaks and personal hygiene.

 

Here's a nice touch for the air tanker crews:

 

When airtanker groups flying through the meal period, end up at another base as a result of fire action, or are called to base without time to acquire a meal (this may include an early ‘stand to’ before stores are open or getting ‘off base’ at night after stores are closed), the following will apply:

A hot ‘sit down’ meal at the Airtanker Base or local Forest Protection Division kitchen can be provided at the request of the flight crew,

 

And here are a few meal rules for the "flight crews":

 

Meals at Bases

 

Flight crews are expected to:

• Use closest kitchen facility maintained by Forest Protection Division for the purpose of feeding seasonal firefighters, such as fire camps, secondary or primary camps, or contract kitchens,

• When more convenient and feasible, eat near their place of accommodation, if different from above location; for example, when staying at a hotel in town they may take breakfast there rather than drive out to a base, however, the flight crew may not claim the meal on their expense claim, and

Eat pre-packed lunches from any source but primarily Forest Protection Division contracted kitchens.

 

Forest Protection Division will attempt to maintain the following minimum standards for all flight crews during the initial stages of mobilization of a campaign fire camp:

 

Day One: Food will be made available; however, delivery times will be intermittent. Flight crews should be prepared with enough rations for the first burning period.

Day Two: Initial set-up of Forest Protection Division camp, or equivalent, will provide food services.

Day Three: Scheduled meals will be available based on flight crew schedule.

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AFS was one of the most pre Neandrathal man forest services in Canada, looks like their newest generation is still inbred from the same gene pool.

 

In the mid seventies those pricks refused to let us eat in the cook house in Footner Lake when we were on fires, after the second day of that crap we made a great big sign about twenty feet long and called the CBC news media and went on strike.

 

The sign read "On Strike, Footner Lake Inhumane."

 

All **** broke loose when it hit the newspapers and they were forced to take me back on the bomber group because of all the publicity surrounding our strike.

 

Oh, I forgot to mention I was the first one fired because they preceived me to be as they put it to the media, "Not a team player "

 

What a sad bunch of brain dead a..holes they were in AFS and how easy it was to get them to reverse their decision to fire me.

 

Ahhhh those were the good old days..

 

...The problem of living in tents is simple to fix, set fire to the camp.

 

Chas W.. ( Rev. C.W. )

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There's no question that this sleeping in tents bit is a load of horse ####, but I think everybody has been missing the point: why would the aircrews need to sleep close the the fire with the fire crews in the first place????

What kind of emergency would justify this new policy?? What more are we going to be able to do by sleeping close to the fire as opposed to staying 10 miles away?? Is the .2 ferry flight really going to make a difference on the outcome of the fire???

Forestry knows exactly what the twilight and daylight times are throughout the year, so is there a problem with proper planing? What am I missing???

This isn't an issue of wheather we should have to sleep in tents or not, the issue is WHY?????????????????????????????????????????

 

p.s. If I have to sleep in a pup tent, then the forestry officer that tells me to do so is going to spend the night in the said tent as well!!!

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There's no question that this sleeping in tents bit is a load of horse ####, but I think everybody has been missing the point: why would the aircrews need to sleep close the the fire with the fire crews in the first place????

What kind of emergency would justify this new policy?? What more are we going to be able to do by sleeping close to the fire as opposed to staying 10 miles away?? Is the .2 ferry flight really going to make a difference on the outcome of the fire???

Forestry knows exactly what the twilight and daylight times are throughout the year, so is there a problem with proper planing?  What am I missing???

This isn't an issue of wheather we should have to sleep in tents or not, the issue is WHY?????????????????????????????????????????

 

p.s. If I have to sleep in a pup tent, then the forestry officer that tells me to do so is going to spend the night in the said tent as well!!!

 

You need a teddy bear ? Not sure they'll want to share your tent with ya !

 

:lol:

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