Logging >>> IFR TIME

[Needles Split]

Can you log IFR ACTUAL if you are not filed

IFR, but, you are operating in 24 hours of darkness, 2 crew, night VFR, and you''re in no mans land > in other words... you have no horizon or ground reference... the arctic. You have to fly via the instruments

in order to keep on top of things, I not talking bad weather, I''m talking no cloud below 20000, no precip,and vis >6 (on the ground).

Perhaps CTD could clarify.....

[Schooner69]

Needles Split: short answer is yes. At least in my definition: "flight without visual reference to the ground" is "on instruments" and as such is loggable.

 

 

 

[CTD]

I know the job you''re talking about, and no you can''t log IFR time there. You have to be filed, and that job is flown ''night VRF''. If you do not have the required night references for night VFR, you''re illegal to go.

[Bladestrike]

I''ve always had a question about that CTD. You are no doubt referring to

 

Minimum Visual Meteorological Conditions for VFR Flight in Uncontrolled Airspace

602.115 No person shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight within uncontrolled airspace unless

 

(a) the aircraft is operated with visual reference to the surface;

 

When operating VFR at night in the North, the aircraft and crews were required to be IFR capable, and visibility had to meet the limits for night VFR, but this was only possible if there was something to see. No, you did not have a decernable horizon, but if you turned on your landing light you''d see the ground.

 

To play it safe, I often filed (our SOP''s now require us to treat the flight as IFR), but I know the majority of guys wouldn''t. When I quered TC they didn''t seem overly concerned with how things were being done. The big concern was the different MOCA''s in the winter for icing concerns, 2000 and 10 IFR, but only 1000 and 3 for night VFR.

 

As far as logging the time, the response I got was if you''re flying on the instruments, its IFR time, filed or not. There seems to be three very different threads of thought on this, and I even went to the airline forum to see if there was a standard but there was alot of diversion there as well.

 

One extreme was to log everything. If you''re filed it doesn''t matter if its CAVU, you''re navigating by your instruments so log IFR. The other end of the spectrum only logs actual "in-cloud" time. Most came in the middle, which is what I do, if I am relying on my ADI to get me home, I log IFR, whether its night and there''s no horizon, or if I break out on top and have to shoot an approach on the other end, or of course, if I''m in the soup the entire time.

 

[Reddog]

I have a question for CTD.

 

Where I am in the world we are operationing locally registered aircraft so there are no CARs to look this up in and it''s been a long time since I did the Arctic night (VFR?) slinging thing.

 

Question: Is there a CARs requirement to "file" for an IFR flight in uncontrolled airspace in the Arctic, say between Lougheed and King Christian Islands?

 

[Bruised Armpit]

I agree with both CTD and Bladestrike on this one....if you cannot maintain ground reference from adequate terrestrial, extra-terrestrial, celestial, or whatever kind of lighting, you are not VFR, and the flight is illegal flown as VFR.

Having said that...I would log it as actual IFR if I happened to be in that situation. It would sure look funny if you were audited...do they do that?

[RDM]

Blades is right, this has been ongoing for sometime with no "clear answer" ever coming straight from the regulatory body at transport.

 

Flying outa YYT we are "filed" EVER trip IFR, granted we do spend ALOT of time in the goo but it is also done for ease of operation. When I first started I got a dozen different answers on how to log the time and when I asked some buddies in TC I got a few more opionions.

 

So right or wrong here is what some of us do, QUESS, we quess at the end of the day how much time we were in the goo. On a clear day we but 0 time IMC, maraginal days half the air time, and a normal day on the grand banks all the air time goes IMC.

 

As for night, sorry but anytime over the north atlantic in the dark is on instruments and is logged as such. Coming of the deck at night as the flying pilot by using visual references is going to get you one big cuff up side the head from the guy next to you believe me.

 

...........who knows?

[Bladestrike]

RedDog, I think this is what you are looking for;

 

Requirement to File a Flight Plan or a Flight Itinerary

602.73 (1) Subject to subsection (3), no pilot-in-command shall operate an aircraft in IFR flight unless an IFR flight plan has been filed.

 

(2) No pilot-in-command shall operate an aircraft in VFR flight unless a VFR flight plan or a VFR flight itinerary has been filed, except where the flight is conducted within 25 nautical miles of the departure aerodrome.

 

(3) A pilot-in-command may file an IFR flight itinerary instead of an IFR flight plan where

 

(a) the flight is conducted in part or in whole outside controlled airspace; or

 

( facilities are inadequate to permit the communication of flight plan information to an air traffic control unit, a flight service station or a community aerodrome radio station.

 

(4) Notwithstanding anything in this Division, no pilot-in-command shall, unless a flight plan has been filed, operate an aircraft between Canada and a foreign state.

 

 

[downwash]

Unless things have changed drastically, it seems the intent has always been to log both flight in IMC AND flight under IFR as ''Instrument.'' As noted, above, the regs outline what''s IFR, so the IMC part becomes moot. Anyone querying your resume MAY want to know how much IMC time you have, but it''s the IFR time that counts, whether in VMC or IMC - you''re navigating the aircraft on instruments no matter what you can see outside (and more IS better isn''t it?).

[Reddog]

Bladestrike. That would be it. Thanks for finding it for me.

 

Para. 3 would cover Arctic operations and also answer the original question as to whether you can log IMC/actual time even though you have not "filed" IFR.