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Crusty

CH148 Cyclone missing on ops

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Listening to Retired Rear Admiral Mark Normans interview on  CTV news was quite enlightening , having been in the RCNA for five years,  and with PWGSC for the thirteen years, contracting for and auditing aviation companies used by the Canadian Government and the USAF. I was also involved in numerous contracts on behalf of DND. The Air Force had a requirement to train pilots in mountain flying, so I met a gentleman who was in the Air Force from Winnipeg, in Abbotsford.

His actual rank was unknown to me, he had two and half rings on his uniform, which indicated to me he had been flying for quite a while.

He asked me what I considered an experienced pilot was.  I said anybody who has around three thousand hours, has made just about all the mistakes he is going to make and learned from them. He said I guess I am not an experienced pilot, ha ha.

DND is notorious for not keeping their pilots and aircraft up to date. Taxpayers take notice.

Mark Norman stated in his opinion the accident was either mechanical or human error.

I disagree, the pilots did not have enough experience (Both Captains) on the aircraft.

You can have all the book training and theory in the class room, you cannot get experience unless its applied on the aircraft in flight.

If either PILOT had five hundred hour on type, I would be surprised.

It would take at least a thousand feet to iron out the problem, if any procedure was in place.

For it to be a Human Error Factor, lay the blame at Department of National Defense, again.  

     

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i remember the airshow circuit 

 

the 412 Pilots would be pumped up by the announcer....Captain Bob is Piloting with 20 years service and a whopping 1500hrs total time which probably included their air cadet flight time.

same with the F18 drivers....many many years in service and low hours compared to what we are used to in the commercial end.

they really made it sound like they had this impressive resume.

 

I've been following articles on this story, and because they seem to not be very transparent about the whole story, it makes me wonder if the request was made to buzz the tower, and it all went awry.

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On 5/5/2020 at 8:41 PM, GrayHorizons said:

i remember the airshow circuit 

 

the 412 Pilots would be pumped up by the announcer....Captain Bob is Piloting with 20 years service and a whopping 1500hrs total time which probably included their air cadet flight time.

same with the F18 drivers....many many years in service and low hours compared to what we are used to in the commercial end.

they really made it sound like they had this impressive resume.

 

I've been following articles on this story, and because they seem to not be very transparent about the whole story, it makes me wonder if the request was made to buzz the tower, and it all went awry.

Really?

Without a doubt, probably the most inane armchair quarterbacking I've had the misfortune to read in regards to any military aviation accident in the absence of: CVR data, FDR data, witness statements or preliminary flight safety investigation results.

It was always my perception that aviation professionals, civilian and military, assigned human error as the sole cause factor only when all of the facts failed to support any other conclusion. 

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Crusty, it's nice to hear from you and your opinion on the accident, although its

2 hours ago, Crusty said:

Really?

Without a doubt, probably the most inane armchair quarterbacking I've had the misfortune to read in regards to any military aviation accident in the absence of: CVR data, FDR data, witness statements or preliminary flight safety investigation results.

It was always my perception that aviation professionals, civilian and military, assigned human error as the sole cause factor only when all of the facts failed to support any other conclusion. 

out to lunch. It is not to difficult to figure out that it was human error somewhere along the line, mechanical or crew error.

Having worked with DND on numerous occasions when I was contracting for them, I found them not to be realistic, in there scope of work. Go back over the Helicopter procurement in the last 50yrs and see how long it takes to happen, between the modification to the aircraft due to the add-ons, the engines had to be changed on the Cyclone as the originals were underpowered, etc, etc. DND recently put out a procurement to modify the Bell 412, change the transmission and engines to accept more weight. Bell Helicopter is doing the modifications on behalf of DND on an already modified FAA and TCCA  commercial helicopter,,  without issuing a Request for Proposal to the Canadian Helicopter Industry, and I forgot, updated glass cockpit with autopilot.

 Human Error starts from the TOP, which is the Government at the top, with all its inadequate decision making on behalf of the provinces, politicians and patronage.

The people you are accusing of being  ( armchair quarterbacking ) have a little more time than you in the industry.

Combined, we probably have 30,000 Flight Hours and around 90yrs in the industry. Match that with your opinion.

How many people are going to be killed on the highways this week-end.

Get realistic, BS only goes so far.

 

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7 hours ago, Crusty said:

Really?

Without a doubt, probably the most inane armchair quarterbacking I've had the misfortune to read in regards to any military aviation accident in the absence of: CVR data, FDR data, witness statements or preliminary flight safety investigation results.

It was always my perception that aviation professionals, civilian and military, assigned human error as the sole cause factor only when all of the facts failed to support any other conclusion. 

you're not obligated to share my thoughts at all, and if you wish to call it arm-chairing, go right ahead. I call it speculation, and I welcome all ideas, thoughts and opinions.

life is about that mysterious crystal ball, everyone wants answers immediately, yet the bureaucracy drags it on much longer than it needs to be.

my comment is more about the lack of transparency from day 1 that makes things seems like their is an obvious cause, and the powers to be are stalling and deflecting. I really doubt the TSB is investigating this one, and that likely means we wont get a detailed investigation report, just redacted fluff the military puts out after the Minister of said military edits out the things that make them look bad.

you're free to disagree. I'm no less professional than you.

 

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On 5/4/2020 at 6:38 PM, Blackmac said:

 

If either PILOT had five hundred hour on type, I would be surprised.

     

It’s a new aircraft, obviously they aren’t going to have many hours on type. Seaking pilots transitioned to the cyclone, how else are you going to implement a new aircraft?

Some of the comments are disappointing to hear from experienced flyers. Casually remarking buzzing the tower as a possible cause and conspiracy under tones, really?

I’ll wait for the report and then make my judgments, I do hope there will be lessons learned so things like this can be avoided in the future. 

RIP crew and condolences to family and friends.

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