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Military Hardware

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-- In a separate plan, the military has gone to Treasury Board seeking approval to buy equipment for Canada's mission in Afghanistan, including armoured vehicles. That too raised hackles on Parliament Hill, with MPs suggesting the troops already in Afghanistan were sent without adequate gear. --


what REALLY bothers me is the circular arguments, bitching about procurement procedures that take forever,, as intrepid has stated, then stating that the troops are sent without proper equip --- sh*t or get off the pot !!


sad part is the politicians are playing with peoples lives, literally

:down: just a game for them to get their voices heard (election coming you know) :down:

don't really want to get started on this, blame it on Elvis for starting this thread :up:


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You can forget the Russian hardware. Having worked in Azerbaijan for three years along side our Azeri partners Mi-8's, it's a non-starter (pun intended). You have to see Russian equipment and maintenance up close to actually believe how rough it really is.

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From what I've heard of Russian hardware, you are correct when it's flown and maintained by the Russians. There is some Russian stuff in Canada and I've run into an operator in the US that says once you get it flown and maintained properly, it's actually pretty good. I agree, though, I don't think you'll ever see it in our military inventory.

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The military operated the Chinook before and somebody with the mind of gnat decided to sell them to the Dutch. The Dutch upgraded them to a later model and are still working well.


The "Herc"s should have been upgraded twenty years ago.


Basically what DND is doing is upgrading equipment, FINALLY.



Cheers, Don


There should be Defence oversight board and they should make the decisions at the behest of DND, NOT POLOTICIANS.

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Ottawa seeks bids on military aircraft




Saturday, October 8, 2005 Posted at 1:09 PM EDT


OTTAWA -- The federal government has shot down a military proposal to buy $6-billion worth of planes and helicopters without seeking competitive bids. Critics said the process they adopted instead will have the same result.


General Rick Hillier, Canada's Chief of Defence Staff, and Ward Elcock, the deputy minister of defence, had recommended the government forgo the competitive process to buy Chinook helicopters and Hercules planes for the Canadian Forces.


But Prime Minister Paul Martin and Defence Minister Bill Graham decided this week to invite all manufacturers to respond to letters of interest and state whether they could meet the requirements of the Canadian Forces.


A defence official said the government still wants to act rapidly, but will ensure that all manufacturers have the opportunity to participate in the process.


"We are going to go fast. That's the direction from the minister and the Prime Minister," the official said. "You have to at least allow the companies to demonstrate whether or not they can meet the requirements. And from my perspective, that's competition."


Industry sources said the requirements will likely be so specific that only the makers of the Chinook and the Hercules aircraft will be able to comply, and that the government is simply delaying the inevitable.


A Defence official did not dispute that.


"What there needs to be is to be a fair, open and transparent process rather than a directed contract. In that sense, it is significantly different, even though you may get the same result," the official said.


The government is trying to accelerate the purchase of major military equipment following the drawn-out attempt to replace the military's dilapidated, 40-year-old fleet of Sea King helicopters.


The Canadian Forces want to purchase new transport planes to replace their aging fleet of Hercules and new search-and-rescue planes.


In addition, the military has decided to buy medium- and heavy-lift helicopters to transport soldiers in places such as Afghanistan.


The new equipment is expected to cost $12-billion over 20 years, half for purchasing the aircraft and half for servicing them. The money was allocated in the last federal budget.


The purchase has been the subject of intense lobbying inside and outside government.


Sources said the government was more concerned about moving quickly on the contracts than making sure various regions of the country benefited from them.


In addition, the government has decided to seek bids to obtain guaranteed access in times of need to giant cargo planes used to deploy Canadian troops around the world.


The government wants to sign a retainer with the winning company to lease instead of buy the transport aircraft.

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  • 1 month later...

Once again every thing is on hold.


Feds delay buying military aircraft

Cabinet retreats in face of industry outcry

Nov. 15, 2005. 05:53 PM




OTTAWA — The federal government has delayed a $12-billion purchase of military aircraft until after the next election, deferring political fallout over buying foreign products, The Canadian Press has learned.

Key cabinet ministers and the defence chief faced “passionate” aerospace industry representatives Monday night.


They had to deflect claims they were tailoring the purchase of planes and helicopters to eliminate Canadian competition in favour of specific foreign-built craft they want.


“It’s unanimous — we’re not moving with it now,” a government official said on condition of anonymity.


“We’re not moving with this before an election.


“It’s all on the basis of the ferocious lobbying by industry. It’s all Toronto-Montreal-Bombardier politics.”


Defence Minister Bill Graham said Tuesday that an election would “inevitably delay the capacity of the government to make major procurements.”


“We don’t make major procurements during elections,” he said.


But sources say it’s become evident the purchase of tactical transport aircraft, heavy-lift helicopters and fixed-wing search-and-rescue planes from the United States and Europe will open a political Pandora’s box in the key election battlegrounds of Ontario and Quebec.


The issue has created unease in the federal cabinet, where Graham — who has promoted fast-tracked military procurements — could find himself at odds with colleagues whose constituents work in the industry.


The defence chief, Gen. Rick Hillier, pitched the plan to buy aircraft to cabinet ministers Monday, before he and Graham led a government delegation into an evening session with industry officials.


The government proposal, which would see the first deliveries within three years, lays down specific requirements for all three types of aircraft, plus a handful of Arctic utility planes.


Depending on the aircraft, performance-based requirements include specific minimum capabilities of speed, range and manoeuverability, takeoff-and-landing, altitude and climate, and space and payload.


They’ve also included fleet size and delivery date requirements.


“If you don’t have it — sorry . . . you can’t design it,” said a government official, commenting on the aircraft that are needed.


The industry complains Ottawa is ignoring economic and regional development by directing its contracts toward Italy’s Alenia C-27J SaR aircraft and the U.S.-made Hercules transport plane and Chinook helicopter


“Our people were passionate,” said Tim Page, executive director of the 430-member Canadian Defence Industries Association.


“They demonstrated a commitment to contribute to a strengthened defence and security industrial base in this country, and were encouraging the government to think and act strategically as it makes decisions on defence procurement in order to best leverage advantages for Canada.”


Industry has been calling for a “fair and transparent” process, he added.


The Conservative defence critic, retired general Gordon O’Connor, says he’s concerned the government is rushing the process unnecessarily and has made the requirements “so precise only one solution’s possible.”


“They’re basically saying that these are needed tomorrow morning for Afghanistan and that’s not true.”


“I don’t think having a legitimate competition . . . would add much time to this process.”


Department officials say the requirements may be specific but they do not rule out bids by competing companies. The military wants about 15 of each aircraft. It will piggyback the Arctic planes on the SaR order.


Quebec-based Bombardier has hired the lobbying firm of Hill and Knowlton to press its case on Parliament Hill. Bombardier officials did not return phone calls on Tuesday.


“They’re spinning, saying it’s directed procurement and it’s not,” said one government official. “There’s a little bit of frustration here because the industry . . . has been pushing for a streamlined, accelerated procurement process for years based on performance indicators.


“We’re giving them that and now they scream: `Not good enough!’


“To suggest that this is not true competition is just hogwash.”


Page said there’s a disconnect between how government and industry define performance specifications.


“I don’t know that there are too many people around this town who are very expert in coming up with a good definition of what a true performance spec should look like.”

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