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Unionize The Whole Damm Industry



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I have been in the aviation business long enough to see a need for a different kind of union / association, so I am all for this idea.


We need the RCWB ( Reverend Charlas W. Brotherhood. )


You join my union_ religion and I will not only guarantee you better pay, less work and freedom form being dehumanized by your employer I will offer you eternal salvation in the after life. ( At a !0% tithe in addition to your union dues. )


The only reason pilots and engineers have been unable to band together is because they are seperated by distance and work schedules that do not allow proper time for meetings.


As part of my deal I will appoint deacons and some pastors to keep everyone in the loop and make sure we get our just dues here on earth as workers as well as in the after life.


And that brothers and sisters is your only true chance for salvation from a life of servitude under the evil ones.


Reverend Chas W.

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Personally, I believe all our wages should rise because in 1970 I was advised and just recently again, that according to the Life Insurance industry, pilots are rated in the same category as "Trapeze Artists" with Barum & Bailey/Ringling Bros Circus. I'll bet that they get a LOT more than pilots earn though. I wonder.......do they have an "Association" or a "Union"? Interesting concept........I wonder why it hasn't been brought-up here before? B)

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Let's just put it this way, I'm getting pretty sick of the "grab whatever I can" mentality that is surrounding out current election - everybody wants to get ahead and nobody want to give up anything to make the overall quality of life better. Same seems to go for our industry. So when this topic came up, it fast-tracked me to annoyed mode.


I digress.


As for me, I stand for what I believe in, ie. good machinery, good and fair pay, a positive work environment, and a balance between working my a$$ off, and having a home life. I have quit jobs because of this in the past, given up management positions because of it, and will not hesitate to do so again in the future if required to. The reason we need an association is that many pilots and engineers will not stand up for these things, they will break every law in the book to make a buck, and many operators are more than willing to let them do it.


If there was ever an "individual," it's me, believe me! But, I do recognise that things need to progress, not regress, and that in order for that to happen, we cannot accept conditions being set by the lowest common denominator, and we cannot ALWAYS put out own interests first. An association lobbying HAC(which is an operators association only, for their benefit only) for better standards, and minimum standards, is required. This may mean that a pilot can refuse a machine or weather or customer, and know that a co-worker will not take the trip anyway. You get the idea.


Now, that said, I realize that most of the big companies in Canada are very good at maintaining reasonable standards, I see it everyday and am thankful for it. The problem lies in the medium to small outfits, the ones that allow a company culture exist where fudging logbooks, breaking duty as soon as there's a busy day, flying overwieght, pushing weather, etc etc persists.


The outfit I spoke of shall reamain annonomys for obvious reasons. I worked for them, was sucked in during the nice slow winter months by shiney machines, talk of "respecting the CARS," and a "family" type company culture. As soon as it got busy, duty was broken EVERY day, the talk of "respecting CARS" went out the window, and the working atmosphere became poison. I would never go back, regardless of money. They had a low-timer work for FREE for two weeks, after promising him a job for months... It was more thier right-wing, red-neck, "us" first politics I was refering to earlier. Us being the "haves" of the industy.


I work as hard as I can, I always put my best effort forward, work within the rules and laws governing our indusrty, and because of it have been very forunate with my career. So I resent the implication that, to paraphrase a number of peoples posts, "those who work the hardest will get ahead." Many of those who "work the hardest," do so in the face of CARS, safe flying practices, and are rewarded by the operator - that is not good if we're trying to raise a standard. As you said, no job is worth dying for.


As for the Green Party, well, that's tongue-in-cheek. I don't vote anymore because I'm completely disillusioned with so-called Democracy. Whether it's the current version of the Liberals, Mulroney, Bush, Regan, Thatcher, or any other you can name, they're all out for themselves, their friends in indusrty, and their legacy - so I refrain. The system is 200years out of date.


You said in one of your posts that if a person is good at thier job, they will get paid accordingly. In a perfect world, I agree. Unfortunately, the definition of "good at your job" can, and does include breaking the laws, working for cheap, flying inadequet machinery, cutting the boss's lawn, working 60 days straight etc. I realise that's probably not what you meant when you wrote it, but from many operators points of view, those ARE the good pilots/engeneers.


That's the most I've typed at one go ever! Anyway, it's not a problem that's going anywhere soon, so I assume we'll all be at this for a while. Depending on where we are in the indusrty, we all have different points of view.






You make some good points and I agree with you on some of them. I do not agree that pilots and engineers are breaking every law in the book to get ahead. Of course there will always be those that ignore the rules and exploit an opportunity, that exists in every facet of life. The most important thing is respect for your self. If one does not have that then the line can easily be obscured and shortcuts and devaitions can be made. I have had the pleasure of working for some great companies...I have also worked for some not so great. The bottom line is that I do not work for the not so great companies any longer...


I do think you are mistaken about where I work now. I can say that there are not many companies finer out there. Our decisions are always backed up...we are never asked to push limitations, our tours are very very reasonable, pay and benifits are great, and above all else..the integrity of the aircraft is second to none. The things you mentioned would not occur there..nobody works for free..nobody is taken advantage of... I can think of a few operations that would fit that profile...but not the one that employs me. I am very happy where I am and worked hard to get there.


As for your lack of interest in voting...that is too bad. Things will never change if you and others keep that attitude. One thing is for sure the Liberals are definitely a bunch of spoiled wasteful thieves! And any vote that removes them would benifit this country! (As long as it is conservative;)


Thanks for the long response..it is good to see someone actually take time and write something worthwhile.


Safe flying


and I still say NO WAY to a union!


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Unions suck, they protect those who are to useless to survive in a free market society. You work hard you go places and make your own deals. Unions prevent this and why the **** would I want to give more of my pay cheque to another form or bureaucracy. If you don't like where you work do something about it and find something else. Boo Friging Hoo! :up:


Well, This simplifies matters for me in trying to decide yes or no to a union. When people make statements infering that others are "useless" it points in a clear line that there is no tolerance in this industry for the opinions of others. While I can respect that Vader believes that some people are "useless" it is too general a statement and really reflects the level of tolerance in this industry.


Do you suppose that if a person where actually useless TC would pass then on a flight test or written exam- I think not.


What the industry needs more than anything is more tolerance and do away with the frat boy cliquee, groupie attitude of those who believe everybody that has a different opinion is - USELESS. :down:


Vader is entitled to his general opinions, but really should consider leaving the dark side of the force.



H ;)

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Okay folks, let's all take a deep breath, count to three, let it out, and take a pill. Let's try and keep this discussion on a civilized level and not let it degenerate to mud slinging. :o


I believe unions exist because bad bosses exist. If indeed unions do form in some companies, I would suspect it will be a reflection of management. :mellow:


I also believe unions tend to breed mediocrity within a workforce. If I know that my salary will be based on whatever the union negociates rather than my own performance, what incentive do I have to excel ? How's the ol' saying go ? "It's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by a bunch of turkeys..." <_<


My hope is that if one or two operator's get unionized, it'll serve as a serious wake-up call to the others. From talking to a few pilots in our group of companies, things are starting to improve markedly here. Perhaps the lack of experienced pilots is starting to take it's toll. :up:


Someone mentioned the treatment of low-timers. Name one union that works to help new guys get into their trade. Unions are usually more interested in protecting existing members by making it as difficult as possible for new people to get in. That mentality would be more likely to make it even harder for low-timers to break into the industry.


My 2¢... B)

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