Unionize The Whole Damm Industry

[hurler]

Over time support will grow, when the stats are in its only a step that points that there are problems, even at 28% to date its pretty clear that management needs some smartening up. It only confirms what I and other have known for years.

 

Any step towards some form of job security would be an improvenment over the the current situation.

 

Cheers H :punk:

 

PS. Vader- may the force be with you too!

[PerfectTrack]

how many pilots and engineers are there in canada? only 60 replies so far and 28% of that is not even worth considering looking into this any further (17 people hardly makes the claim there is a problem in the industry). You're right, one day, it might, but right now, I'd say the issue is probably going to die. keep up your fight if you want, but, the association, which is far more easier to handle and accept, still didn't succeed.

I bet there are 17 new pilots in training right now that will fill those 17 spots with more desire and good attitude than whats there now. Why is it always management to blame? Look at the worker too they can be just as much at fault.

[hurler]

PT- Yes I agree there are those who are to blame for difficulties other than management, and yes it will take time to get the vote out. I don't thnk the issue will die though and I'll try to keep it alive and the discussion going.

 

So there are problems on both sides ( agreed)! what is the way to resove the problem short of telling disgruntled pilots to shut up! How do you proceed in reforming or bettering the situation for both sides? Union or Association? I believe it's a union because if 17 pilots out of 40 odd are getting the shaft for what ever reason wouldn't it be worthit for the operators too to find a form of mechanism to resolve the problems . The failure is with breakdown in communication as always,. a union acts as an intermediary, and protect the employees job , an assocaition can't do that and has a more limited manade.

 

It would be worthit for operators to keep the higher time guys around , its easier to fill ever increasing insurance rates and conditions imposed by groups like contrail. It may prove benificial to only unionize a portion of the industry so that the low timers can get the needed break. Who knows what the solution is but polling the matter always sheds light on where the sentiments are.

 

What is disturbing in some of the responses on the no side , this limited and very juvenile mentality of the " shut up boys club" Owners no doubt for the most part. I'll have to think of a newer poll once this one is done to asks some different questions to pin the matter down and get a cleared indea of what' sreally going on.

 

Suggestions welcomed. For the mean time vote on!! Its a democracy not a dictatorship as some would like. :down:

 

 

H

[PerfectTrack]

my opinion is that the disruntled employees might be better served doing something else. Some are probably in the wrong business, as this industry is very different from many out there. So instead of trying to conform an industry where you don't fit, find one that does fit your criteria.

there is no mould where you can create perfect people for this industry or perfect situations, but you have to conform to the specialties of it. If some guy wants a union so he can fight for 2 and 2 rotations, go away. There are so many peculiar differences between jobs and people, you can't have any one voice to level that field, you either make the best of it or you don't. the line to replace you is long and the industry won't suffer if a few bad apples take their helmets and go home, lots of shiny new ones are waiting in the wings.

[hurler]

my opinion is that the disruntled employees might be better served doing something else. Some are probably in the wrong business, as this industry is very different from many out there. So instead of trying to conform an industry where you don't fit, find one that does fit your criteria.

there is no mould where you can create perfect people for this industry or perfect situations, but you have to conform to the specialties of it. If some guy wants a union so he can fight for 2 and 2 rotations, go away. There are so many peculiar differences between jobs and people, you can't have any one voice to level that field, you either make the best of it or you don't. the line to replace you is long and the industry won't suffer if a few bad apples take their helmets and go home, lots of shiny new ones are waiting in the wings.

 

 

PT, It easy to say go home or change careers, honestly as these difficulties exists in all professions, the key is not for the 17 of 44 to change but to make the industry more balanced so that it can accomodate a the full spectrum of person who are all different. Without a way of adding some balance so that the employee feels proteced there will never be any reform as everybody will be afraid to speak out for fear of consequences. I don't agree with your reasoniong on your last point.

 

Every person when they became a pilot or engineer did it for personal reasons, to assume that all the reasons would be identical is unrealistic. The bond we all share for the most part is the love for aviation. Within this common bond there has to be a happy medium!

 

I am in agreemnet that if a pilot or engineer is not doing his or her job to what is expected in terms of safety and security and they are just bad at it, then by all means change careers. Howevere a large ammount of disputes betwen management and the reasons for some dismisals, or poor working conditions or the famous "cull " have nothing to do with either. Like I said earlier it comes down to a breakdown in communication , a union adds a buffer to the process.

[Reddog]

Point of correction.

 

How many of the "No" votes are from Owners, Managers or Management Wannabees?

[PerfectTrack]

thats a good question reddog, but we don't have many who readily admit to being in those positions and many who are, may also go back to the field level at some point in their careers, so they still have a valid opinion regardless of their current position. Not everyone who makes it to a management level stays there for the duration of their career. once again, the poll has only a teeny tiny percentage of what the industry has for a population and in my opinion the poll means nothing at this point.

 

As for hurler, I was mainly talking about the disgruntled employees, the ones who are angry all the time no matter what is dealt their way. I know other problems persist, and from experience I know that bigger companies have channels in place where you can voice your problem to several people and the process is in place to deal with it. Up until this point in my career, those process' have always worked to find that happy medium you talk about. in smaller companies, it's obvious the boss wears the "mediator" hat as well and you're likely not going to get far if you have a beef with him or his operation. And thats when you call up the union, have them deliver the 6 or 7 union cards to the other employees and find out if 50% of them share your concerns. sh*t or get of the pot i say.

 

I'm sure you can agree with me though that many pilots entered this industry with delusions on what they were getting into. Some obviously had no clue what the real industry was about. I suspect some of those are the biggest union supporters out there. I really loved the way Canadore birthed pilots as they were ready for what the industry had in store for them, and they weeded out alot of those guys who didn't have a clue. Many other training outfits just want the money and don't prepare you for the inevitable, or they give you false hope about getting your start working in a big city flying for EMS. Maybe there should be a pre course on the expected lifestyle of pilots and engineers that should be mandatory before starting any classes.

So in all respect, the best thing for the union supporters to do right now is get the ball rolling just like CHL EMS and be ready for whatever comes your way (ie getting fired before you can get that all needed protection, losing friends etc) . I think the industry will self implode, or at least blow up bit by bit.

[Blackmac]

This is for the benefit for people that don't read the other threads.

 

Without making a big stink about union's or asscociation's, the operator's are there own worst enemy (not all) and have been since the begining and it only got worse after de-reg (1987).

 

This was copied from another thread.

 

In the IFR market, offshore mainly, the costs of training is probably along the same lines as Airlines.

In the off-shore market the cost of doing business is incorporated in the monthly and hourly charges and plus the fact that most off-shore markets are unionized this has more of an impact.

 

VFR operators in Canada have been underselling there services for years and the only way that is going to change is the industry has to increase it's hourly and monthly charges to incorporate all realistic charges and long overdue salary increases for all individuals.

 

The off-shore people are not suffering, including the client.

 

It is about time the VFR market started getting there act together and charged the client the realistic cost of renting a helicopter in this day and age.

 

If you don't beleive me, go back in history.

 

Cheers, Don

 

PS: Why do you think CHC sold CHL and went mainly off-shore.

[T55]

I vote no and agree whole heartedly to Amodao's 1st post. I've seen other industries' unions that protect the brain dead and useless workers. Why should anyone demand job security? If you're half decent at what you do, there shouldn't be a problem with finding work.

 

If we were unionized, would we still be allowed to work all night and water ski all day?

I agree there are issues that management tends to ignore, (my outfit's a real good example, eh Amodao?) but one has to look at the big picture. Could anyone handle punching a time clock even when there is nothing to be done?

I just think that helicopter operations are too **** diverse to gather under one umbrella. That's why most of us are in this underpayed, unappreciated, work too **** much industry.

There, wa wa wa........bring it on, b_tch.........ha ha

[Helilog56]

Right on there T55........not only are the operators diverse, but more so pilots and engineers. We are spread over a huge geographical area, but that is small potatoes by comparison of pilots and engineers attitudes...... To many ego's , to many independent aggenda's, to much "what's in it for ME", to much "i'm right, everyone else is wrong", to much " i can be a hero by pushing beyond the limits", etc., etc.

My point is, put a large group of flight crew into a room, and the only thing they can agree upon, is to disagree.....

 

Unions are quite simply, a breeding ground for contempt and incompetence.

May the whining continue.........