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Over Weight, Pooped Out, Out Of Sight

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Give me that 206 that was stated and put me in the same position and under the same conditions. Then before that 206 is 6" off the ground and isn't moving anywhere, I'll tell you if it's over-gross and if it's flying anywhere. I'll know that before I look at ANY guages and my *** will tell me that because I'm "flying" the a/c and not just "operating" a piece of machinery. My guages are not infallible and can be "out"........but my *** is calibrated all the time and sometimes it's been calibrated up to 150 times a day. In the F/W world, you better know your weights or else the only way you'll know for sure if she's over-gross is when you start to run out of runway/lake and ideas at the same time and she doesn't want to go flying yet. Try the exact same thing in the R/W world and you'll not have a long "shelf life" in this industry......and the supply of horseshoes allotted to all of us isn't THAT big either.


If you can't do the above it's because you don't have experience on type, don't have much flying experience at all or don't particularly give a sh*t. So chase that Q guage needle to your heart's content and then one day you'll get a real wake-up call, when you find out that the Q guage was reading 95%, but was really reading 105% .......because it was "out". That's why they invented the Dead Weight Tester.......to confirm what the REAL Dead Weight Tester is telling you and why it's starting to pucker. That's called "flying the aircraft" and not just moving the controls and gluing one's eyes to guages.

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Guest Bullet Remington

Geez Cap, U never cease to amaze me! I have one of the old mil dead weight testers sitting in my hanger. In the past year ain't been one pilot NOR another engineer that knew what it was/is!


For that matter, met four sheet metal youngun,s that didn't know what a Beverly Shear was, and all of them asked me what that weird clamp thing with the rollers was!! They had no idea what an English Wheel is!


Geez, I am getting old!!


Yeah, I know I'm off topic, I just care to respond to posting by one Mr. Moore. In that he has stated he has no flying experience, my postion is that he is naught by a feces agitator.


And this business already has more than its share!


Keep yer stick on the ice, and i hope the back's feelin better ya old coot!! ;)

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Mr. Moore:


It would be nice if you came up with some background on your speculation's.


Having been in the industry for a few years and a few thousand hours on different types, you have been getting answers from very experienced people.


This site is meant to help people understand in the real world, not the imaginary world that you aspire to.


If you would like me to introduce you to some of my friends at TC or TSB, just let me know.


As for the insurance industry, I've been dealing with them since day one and as an added bonus, my wife is a Broker and a Certified Risk Manager.


So maybe in your future comments, what are you trying to accomplish should be stated. Is it your goal to ask questions and then try for an argument???? Seems so.


Might you not come to the conclusion that you actually do not know what you are talking about, this after all is the real world.


For your info most pilots that I know are very safety aware and as for you going around making broad *** statements is not acceptable, if you want to continue making such statements, with your admitted lack of knowledge, go ahead, you will be ignored.


Cheers, Don

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BR ------- that's the second time that you have said that and it's not deserved in my opinion........or at least shouldn't be. What's happened to "flying an aircraft?" Is that also now considered an archaic expression or action? Is it considered "dated" because we don't have manifold pressure guages anymore and engines turn at 30,000 - 60,000RPM instead of 3200RPM. Is it the "in vogue" and correct practise to do nothing but addition on a calculator and chase guage needles and readings to determine whether this aircraft will or is fit to fly? If your *** tells you one thing, BUT your guages tell you something different, is it "dated" to tell an engineer that you don't trust the guage(s) and you're grounding the a/c until a Barfield, Dead Weight or other tests are performed on that a/c before YOU fly it again? Is one also now laughed at or considered " a dinasaur from another age" when one gives one's *** as evidence and NOTHING more?


IF only PART of the above is now true, then I consider that **** sad because a powerful amount of lives have been saved through "it just doesn't feel right", "that guage is full of bullshit" all the way to "there's something here that's just not right.......but the guages don't agree". Robots and other gizmos can now fly pilotless a/c in all forms and types, BUT the one item they CAN'T program into a computer are "feelings" and "hunches" ..........and I'd love to see how the "high foreheads" are going to do that with computer chips, pieces of silicon and a circuit board.



The back is responding well and getting better. Why I can now even lift a LARGE appendage that's attached to me without getting ANY pain from my back. So things are definitely "looking-up". :lol::lol::lol:

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I believe that everything should be weighed, In our heli-ski operation everyone with gear is weighed, It isnt perfect mind you, because some people tend forget to weigh that 1 litre of water or that back pack they didnt have when the initial weighing in was done.

But it gives you a real good idea what you are up against for performance of the aircraft.

As for the summer, I never sling or fly anything without knowing the weight of it in the U.S. Plus it is the U.S.F.S regulations for the pilot to know the wieghts and for them to be give to him.

It makes me sick and tired of the typical AFS load on fires of picking up a bunch of people or gear and guessing the weights and pulling it into a hover and see weather you can fly away or not, Kicking gear or people out until you could.

That is complete crap. Will it ever change? If isnt rocket science to at least give a pilot a rough estimate on the weights and not lie bout them.

As for the half mile debate, normal routine heli-skiing in half mile. I dont believe it is a issue.

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Watched this post for a few days now and I cannot keep my big mouth shut any longer :P Been in the business (wrenching F/W mostly R/W) for 47 years now. I'm not bragging, I'm looking for sympathy :D and I have learned a few things that have never let me down.


1) If my Pilot says there is a problem with the machine, he is usually right. It's his *** in there and he is constantly aware of little twitches, vibrations, etc. that could be abnormal.

(One exception-Helicopters always run rougher and vibrate more over water)


2) Most gauges are inaccurate to some degree. Even TQ and ITT gauges despite the fact we always use Barfield and DW testers. I cringe when I see my confederates using a magnetic tipped scewdriver to remove an instrument. It plays **** with the innards!


3) Most "experienced" R/W Pilots can tell if the machine will fly in the first 10 seconds of flight. (note: "experienced") Good old "seat of the *** thing!" Nothing scares me more than a "younger guy" that says: "lets just give it a try" :shock:


4) Always, but Always, load your own machine. Most non-helicopter types have zero concept of weight vs. a helicopters lifting capacity. I actually heard a driller tell my Pilot once that if he couldn't get the load off the ground "just turn up the revs.! True Story from Mexico. (Canadian driller)


4)Aircraft metal structures have a long memory. If you overload or overstress a machine the metal never forgets, and the poor guy(s) that pays the ultimate price never seems to be the ***---- that did the deed in the first place.


5) Not understanding and knowing weather, aerodynamics, aviation physics and your machine will always bite you to some degree.


Having read through this, I hope you folks don't think I am giving a lecture. I don't mean it to sound like that, just trying to help.


Fly Safe Guys (Gals)

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Thank you for that response. I have been in this industry for eight years now and I don't feel like I know all that much about it yet. I have seen guys longline in 1/4 where you couldn't see the a/c at the end of a 50' line from 200 feet away. I have been asked to lift 1700lbs with an 206 LR and then watched another pilot do it because there was 30 knots of wind. I have found that my safety and pucker factor is much less than the industry standards that I have seen.


I have started looking for new work because of my concern for the a/c I am flying because of the repetitive overtorquing and overlifting that I have seen, heard and know is going on and encouraged by the company I work for. I have 3 years of wrenching off and an on and it scares me to see my *** in the seat of some of these a/c after some of the other pilots have gone out on jobs with the wrong a/c.


I not saying I have always made good choices or not flown over gross weight, but the more I fly my 206 B and 206 L's the more I have come to realize that if there is a light wind and I am not off the ground before 90% torque I am over my gross weight. Yet I have weighed things more than once on one job with scales and max gross at 1500' above sea level was reached at 84% torque in a 5 knot wind.


Most of the costumers I am sent to deal with have enough knowledge to know that if it is windier than the a/c can lift more, but as stated so correctly the a/c doesn't forget this punishment. Why are compressors failing, Box beams cracked, tail boom skins crinkled, oil leaks, engines making metal. Am I out of line? I am so tired of the idea of if you can get off the ground with less than 100 or with minimal use of the transiants then lets go for it.


As for the weather, that's another story. Three years and 1000 hours ago and no arctic time, I was nervous flying below 3 miles. Yet I still strive to abide by my company policy of 1 mile. Why? Because if I go below 1 miles then I am outside the ops manual of my company and if my information about insurance is correct, I now become liable for the a/c and it's passengers and I am not big on that.

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Imagine........an engineer who touches the horizontal stabs for vibrations while the a/c is at idle and climbs in the Medium for a ride with the pilot and reaches down to feel the the rudder pedals, the door frame and the cyclic to determine if the T/R is out-of-track. No guages, no instruments, no rulers, no calculators........just plain old "feel" and let's the a/c "talk" to him. ****, he might even go for a ride with the Light or Medum pilot and sit there and do nothing more than rest his hand on his knee, with a pen/pencil in the tips of his thumb and forefinger and watch what the end of that pen does.........and let the a/c "talk to him".....about whether it's got a "vertical" or a "lateral"....and how bad that might be.


I dearly hope that this industry never ever reaches the point where those kinds of engineers don't exist. I also hope that those pilots who've never worked with such a "PRO", get to do so. A TRUE "team" is to have a pilot who also "feels" the a/c, an engineer who does exactly the same and an a/c that just loves that......and they are all working together in the same place, on the same a/c, at the same time........then watch the "overhead" on that a/c flatten-out.


Slpitpin, I doff my hat to you and a very long list of past engineers who have done the above and for what they have taught me in doing so.





1) In an "ideal world" weighing everything all the time would be done. Unfortuneately, in the "real world" of R/W and F/W operations that is only possible and practical some of the time. Can it be improved and will it be?.......I believe "Yes' to most of the operations, BUT it''ll never be 100%


2) Comparing the USFS rules of operating to those in Canada "does not compute". The USFS is a Federal Agency and rules supreme over ALL of the US land masse. In Canada we are divided-up still into little "fifedoms"or "tribes" and it's not that long ago when imported fire hose and other equipment from one Province could not be used in another because nothing connected or fit together. We finally got over that idiotic "hump", but we don't have a mirror-image in Canada of the USFS. They come with a lot of political power, clout and big budgets.......and they over-rule any of the State Fire Services when they arrive on site. I've worked for some of the State Agencies and most in the Northwest can parallel any of our own in many regards, BUT there are other States where you are dealing with the boys from "Deliverance" and they need a flashlight and two hands to find their *****.......and their budgets are similar. I understand your point and agree, but that comparison, although well intended, isn't accurate or fair to either side. Which system is better though in those items you mentioned?.........you said it best.


3) Customers telling the truth? Now that is really reaching for the sky in the "wish department". I too, could tell a host of stories, but I'll offer one to give an example. A customer with a Nodwell and a Hy-Ab on it, ATTEMPTING to load ONE track from a Cat D8 inside the open cargo door of my 205. That track weighed approximately 17,000 lbs.......all because it was "a BIG MACHINE and should do it.. In order to get "more bang for their buck", there are few customers who I would trust to give me the accurate time of day. Praise God, there are some who you actually CAN trust.


4) Half a mile in the mountains, when you know the route or area real well? I got no problem with that, but If I don't know the area that well, I'm looking for a bit more than 1/2 mile 'cause people like to put wires of different descriptions down in passes and valleys and they don't always let others know about them.



No argument with you Firehawk because you've obviously learned long ago how to say "No"......and a few other choice words. :lol:

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