Over Weight, Pooped Out, Out Of Sight

[Phil Croucher]

Blackmac - This newbie is quite correct.

 

JB - my wife's background is insurance and I can assure you they will do anything they can to weasel out of a claim.

 

Phil

[jetbox]

I've heard of it happening in life insurance or auto insurance cases but I don't know of any a/c accident where it's happened. Can you remember any?

[koalaa119]

I've heard of it happening in life insurance or auto insurance cases but I don't know of any a/c accident where it's happened. Can you remember any?

 

 

Here's my two cents:

 

I know of one case of a crashed a/c where the a/c was found to not be operating within the confines of the a/c limits and the insurance company refused to pay. I have heard from owners of a/c that lease them that they have been told by insurance companies that insurance is only good if the company is flying within the confines of the flight manual. I also have seen and heard that insurance companies don't pay for hot starts. From what I have seen and my direct contact with insurance companies getting insurance for a/c I think if an insurance company found out that an a/c crashed or was damaged while flying overgross weight they would be very apt to refuse payment. If my memory, which isn't always acurate, jogs me correctly, in reading the fine print of an insurance policy I received about 8 years ago there was a disclaimer stating that if the a/c was operated outside the a/c's stated limits the insurance was null and void.

 

The interesting point in this is that I as the pilot now would become personally liable for the a/c, its occupants and its cargo if something were to happen.

[Skidz]

Here's my two cents:

 

I know of one case of a crashed a/c where the a/c was found to not be operating within the confines of the a/c limits and the insurance company refused to pay. I have heard from owners of a/c that lease them that they have been told by insurance companies that insurance is only good if the company is flying within the confines of the flight manual. I also have seen and heard that insurance companies don't pay for hot starts. From what I have seen and my direct contact with insurance companies getting insurance for a/c I think if an insurance company found out that an a/c crashed or was damaged while flying overgross weight they would be very apt to refuse payment. If my memory, which isn't always acurate, jogs me correctly, in reading the fine print of an insurance policy I received about 8 years ago there was a disclaimer stating that if the a/c was operated outside the a/c's stated limits the insurance was null and void.

 

The interesting point in this is that I as the pilot now would become personally liable for the a/c, its occupants and its cargo if something were to happen.

 

This may be true for hull insurance. Keep in mind hull insurance and liability insurance are two completely different things. Liability insurance is meant to cover your arse in the event you screw up. Unless they can prove willfull negligence (ie you really wanted to screw up on purpose) they cannot pull out. Same thing with an employer trying to shift the blame to an employee. Unless they can prove willfull negligence, they can't exclude you from liability coverage. Where it gets iffy is when claims exceed coverage. Then things can get ugly pretty quick. And if you're a self-employed contractor, well, makes sure you've got coverage... :down:

[skyward]

Here's my two cents:

 

I know of one case of a crashed a/c where the a/c was found to not be operating within the confines of the a/c limits and the insurance company refused to pay. I have heard from owners of a/c that lease them that they have been told by insurance companies that insurance is only good if the company is flying within the confines of the flight manual. I also have seen and heard that insurance companies don't pay for hot starts. From what I have seen and my direct contact with insurance companies getting insurance for a/c I think if an insurance company found out that an a/c crashed or was damaged while flying overgross weight they would be very apt to refuse payment. If my memory, which isn't always acurate, jogs me correctly, in reading the fine print of an insurance policy I received about 8 years ago there was a disclaimer stating that if the a/c was operated outside the a/c's stated limits the insurance was null and void.

 

The interesting point in this is that I as the pilot now would become personally liable for the a/c, its occupants and its cargo if something were to happen.

[skyward]

Just to add. Most companies have an extention added to the basic policy called "Breach of Warranty" which covers them in the event that the employee has operated the aircraft in a manner that voids the Cof A. Also as a side note, haven't you ever wondered why there are temperature/torque lmits that usually include a transient limit whereby if you go beyond these limits you are obligated to complete an extensive inspection, yet there doesn't seem to be any inspection criteria for overgrossing the aircraft? Mmmmmmmmm. Makes you wonder how important it really is in relation to the integrity of the airframe?

[jetbox]

Don't take this the wrong way Koalaa but do you have first hand evidence of this case or is this something someone told you about?

The reason I ask is because the insurance company usually pays the owner of the aircraft within a month of the loss but the TSB takes about two years to complete and publish their investigations. What other evidence does the insurance company use to turn down the claim?

I've heard this "the insurance is null and void" thing many times through grapevine talk but have yet to see evidence of it.

If the insurance won't pay when the a/c is flown outside its limitations then why does it pay for pilot error or engineer error? If they didn't, I know of one seismic operator who would've been out of business real fast in the mid nineties! I also know first hand of a few other accidents that were caused by pilot f*** ups and the insurance company paid in full.

And what about the many heli-ski accidents in the last 10 years? How many of those weren't covered by the insurance co.?

 

I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just wondering out loud. I would surely like to know about specific example where this has happened.

 

Cap and Blackmac have been around for ever, one of them would surely know more about this no????

[jetbox]

Makes you wonder how important it really is in relation to the integrity of the airframe?

 

Don't be fooled my friend! One of the reasons it's very important is because if you're overgross, you'll exceed the autorotion capabilities of the rotor system. That's fine and dandy if you can pop your sling load but if you're full of passengers and fuel and your stove quits, good luck slowing the a/c down at the bottom end if you're 500 lbs over gross!

Also, if you're overgross in an R22 (go ahead and laugh but it's very common in the oil patch!) your already short time limit to drop the pole pretty much vanishes and you become as airborne as a brick! This was explained to me by a Robinson Tech Rep.

 

A perfect example is the B2 and the B3. Perfect Track should correct me if I'm wrong but the blades of both a/c are the same dimensions and profile but the B3 blade's spar is a lot stiffer to accomodate the increased gross weight of the B3. You'll notice the difference when you go to tie them down!

 

The justification for the limits may not be obvious but they are there for a reason.

 

Go ahead and make your smart arse Astar comment 407driver! You're due for one!

[cap]

For all the "guage-chasers" out there I can only assume that if a Bell JetRanger's guages have all been verified before flight, it's at sea level approximately it's "AT spec" and that upon lifting into "grand-effect" the Q reads 98-100%, TOT/N1 are within limits, that going by the those guages the a/c is "legal" to fly then.......is that it?

[407 Driver]

Go ahead and make your smart arse Astar comment 407driver! You're due for one!

 

JETBOX, Who ? Me ? I'm a changed man, no more throwing rocks at the Trusted and proven AS350 line, or that other company that I used to heckle on a weekly basis. Nope, it's right down the straight and narrow for me, I'm surprised that you never noticed, it's only been about 1 year ! :up: Heck, I'm just heading out to by the local competitor some lunch :up:

 

Interesting comment about the B2 blades Vs the B3 blades, I wondered about that one, thanks for the info.

 

CAP, are ya sure about that TQ setting for a 206B at 3200 lbs AUW ? My figures

( and 10,000 on type) say that it's about 92% Q HIGE ... or in other terms, every training flight that left Pentiction in the 70's and 80's was about 100-200 lbs over-gross !