HRDC Funding

[arctic_front]

Sorry to sound like I'm raining on your Parade, N2, but I have to ask you: Why should the taxpayer fund your flight-training? There are already too many low-time pilots out there looking for the few jobs available. Maybe once the current bunch of 100-hr wonders secures employment, then I'd be a bit more sympathetic. This country needs Doctors more than pilots, but they don't fund Doctors any more than pilots. Student loans are one thing....but a freebie?....I object to that. If you want your wings bad enough, you'll find a way to cough up $50K.

 

Sorry to be a hard-***....but I've seen way too may pilot-wannabe's come and go....they didn't have the "right stuff" to be a pilot, hence no job....the pilot's licence is not proof you are worthy of the job. Anyone with too much money can get a pilot's licence, only those with the right attitude should become pilots.

[Guest jesse]

arctic front - what exactly is the "right stuff" to be a pilot that us lowly 100 hour wonders dont have. I dont dispute that there are a number of 100 hour wannabe's with bad attitudes but bad attitudes dont seem to be restricted to only low timers.

[arctic_front]

Jessie: What I mean by "the right stuff" is the desire to spend your own 50K, not my 50K as a taxpayer to see if you can find a job as a pilot. I know of lots of guys out there that sure had the desire to fly, saved the $$ and bought the training on their own dime. I also know a few that had a rich daddy or Granny pay for it....and they are still working at a fast food resturant because they didn't have enough desire to chase down that first job. I'm not implying that you or anyone else can't or won't make the grade...but I think its not fair to ask the taxpayer to take the chance. Go ask your banker to loan you the money. Chances are, they won't....why?...its a bad risk.

 

Don't take it personal....there are just too may wanna-be's out there already. A bunch of them get jobs every year...and if you want the job bad enough, you'll find a way to get a licence. Start working hard and saving your money.

[cap]

N2 --------These are the guidelines for what you get from EI:

 

1) It depends what Region you live in, as to what is available and how much. Ergo, just because something may be available in Pacfic Region does not mean that it is available to another Canadian in Manitoba and visa versa, for example.

 

2) Are you a member of the First Nations or Metis?

 

3) Are you a fisherman?

 

4) Are you female?

 

5) Are you French-Canadian?

 

6) Are you a member of any group defined as a "visible minority"?

 

7) Are you a recent immigrant?

 

8) Can you produce in writing, a letter from a potential employer guaranteeing you employment once you have received said training?

 

9) In a minority of cases, the income of your parents will also be a factor, should you be residing at home.

 

 

Let's call the above "Points". The more 'points' that you can check-off, the more you have increased your chances of obtaining help or some type of assistance from EI. This does not apply to EI alone remember. If you would want to apply for and enter training for the vast majority of city, Provincial or Federal police forces or fire departments, the above 'points' will greatly ease your entry and/or move you up on the list of candidates being considered for said position.

[Skids Up]

Arctic Front,

 

I agree with you 100%, but it's sad that the list of "right stuff" (in the eyes of some) is getting to be as Cap has outlined... :down:

 

But hey, maybe it's true, and the world does owe me a living.

[Jammed left]

Now I might be a little out of the loop, because I got my funding from HRDC about 4 years ago, but they did cap it at $10000.....Letters were a huge help, and the research that I did was pretty thorough...like was said above

almost like a business plan.

As far as more low time pilots lining up...I don't see how that isn't a good thing...more competition = better selection of potential candidates....We all pay into these plans with out taxes....there is no reason that these guys shouldn't get some of that back.

[Over-Talk]

Yes, those students did pay taxes into the Government (HRDC) slush fund.....but so did the rest of us !!

I think the student should be entitled to some sort of tax break on the money he earned and then spent on post-secondary education, or even some help with a student loan, but I don't like the idea of a cash hand-out.

Even tax breaks and student loans cost other taxpayers (me) more taxes, but I can handle that .....it's a small part of the cost of the society we live in. But straight cash handouts are not acceptable when so many hospital beds are empty due to a lack of Government funds !!

 

The idea of more students equalling more competition is not true. The real competitors in the race have saved the money beforehand, so they can search for work once licenced, (instead of having to work at a job just to pay back a loan). The motivation that drives these guys is obvious to Chief Pilots, and will be essential as they head into the wilderness with an expensive helicopter and several lives onboard.

Since I trained 21 years ago I have seen this topic come up too often.

Several of the students I trained with had their full tuition and a salary paid by Workers Compensation.........none of them are working as pilots, mainly because none of them really wanted to work at being a pilot, they just thought it would be a cool thing to do before they were fit enough to go back to their old job.

It's no wonder our WCB premiums and taxes are so high !!

 

The "business plan" is also a load of carp as far as I've seen. (My compliments, though, to you guys that managed to sell it to HRDC).

Let's face it, jobs are **** hard to find for 100 hour pilots, so a "business plan" is just a scam......it won't count for anything when you have to knock on doors looking for work.

It seems that if you write more pages, the more that an HRDC staffer will be impressed (or bored) and be prepared to sign-off on the deal.

More pages does not increase the chance of getting a job, just the chance of getting a free hand-out !!

 

I sincerely wish the best of luck to all you students, I was one once and remember it well.

It took years to save all that cash, then just 100 hours to spend it all !!

But the $50,000 fee, and the difficult job search is what seperates the men from the boys (the gonna-bes from the wanna-bes) in our business. The training fee and search will seem easy once you get a job and are faced with some real challenges in Northern Canada during February, low on fuel, with weather getting worse, one hour until pitch-dark, and 3 passengers (and all your families) relying on you.

This is what "the right stuff" is all about, not some free hand-out, or being a recently immigrated native French Canadian female fisherman in a wheel-chair !!

 

Most of you students are too young to remember the free-spending days of Trudeau and Mulroney.......we are still paying off their debts !! We simply couldn't afford all the things they wanted........and now 20 years later we are still over-spending on the wrong things.....free hand-outs to helicopter pilot students being one of them.

 

Thanks for your attention, end of rant.

[cap]

The problem of finding work as a "newbie" helicopter pilot has always been there, BUT with one huge difference compared to many years ago. At one time there was no such person as a 100hr helcopter pilot fresh out of training and that's all the background he/she had in aviation. You got your Commercial F/W, put in the required hours you needed and saved up for the helicopter endorsementr while working. NOW when you went knocking on doors, etc., etc., you were only really "green" in one area and that was in the operation of the helicopter. Many times you would take that helicopter and go back into the areas that you had flown F/W and quite often into areas where the clientele and locals knew you from before. Put another way, the operators will have a tendency to have a harder look at the F/W pilot with 500-1000hrs of bush time and not much experience on helicopters than the 100hr pilot that hasn't flown for his first customer yet. The F/W bush pilot has had enough times to wonder and decide whether he should "pull that 180" and go back because of various reasons and the other just "thinks" he knows what he would do. These are all understandable factors if you happen to be hiring someone to take your investment over the horizon and disappear for 6 weeks, maybe 800 miles away.

 

The numbers of R/W pilots knocking on doors was also less as a result and also because many found comfort in where they were in fixed-wing aviation and gave up on the thought of the R/W endorsement. At one time, it was not uncommon for pilots to fly R/W in the summer and return to F/W in the winter or visa versa. This also was a factor in there being more companies around that had both and could move bodies around, therefore getting away from constantly hiring and letting people go depending on the seasons and/or business factors.

 

The problem was therefore magnified when the 100hr course was put in place and we have the ensuing problems that it has generated. So in a sense, the industry created this present "problem" all on its own, by increasing the numbers looking for that first job. This all doesn't change the present problem, but was meant to explain that it's not really correct to compare "then" to "now" without taking note of the differences.

[duf]

Artic Front

Couldn't disagree with you more. In fact, it's insulting.

My entire family has been paying in to EI (UI in their day)... and they never collected a cent of it. FOR DECADES! We are not a 'freeloading" bunch. They'll never see that money again.

I have saved around $6000 towards the training and will probably get my yearly layoff in the winter from my 50k/year job...

A "Freebie"? I wouldn't call it that at all. If I get it, and I am sure I will (I have high points!), You'll never hear me complain when I see that EI deduction (ie. 1200/year for 35/years= 42,000)!!!!

Don't worry... I am not spending YOUR taxpaying money. YOURS went somewhere else!

 

 

:hide: :hide: I fully understand that paying ones dues is a must, and am fully prepared to do so

[arctic_front]

Duf:

 

I tried not to insult anyone, you included. But as other Poster's have also said, and agreed with my posts, A HRDC grant for training is not acceptable to me or a lot of other folks. A tax-deduction like they had in the old days was fine, but they stopped that. imagine if everybody who was on EI suddenly decided to become a pilot? if they all are now 100-hr pilots looking for a job, guess where that puts you? The reason its so difficult to get a job is because there are just too many wanna-be's. they do themselves a dis-service because they flood the market, and drive their own value down. How many 100 hr pilots have offered to work for free?....believe me...lots. if one does it, its TOO many. Employers love a keener that's willing to work for free.

 

A wise man once told me: " If you didn't EARN it, its not really yours" Apply that to getting a grant for a pilot's license. I've seen a few hundred low-time pilots come through the hangar door....all ready, willing and confident that they will set the aviation world on its ear. 90% can't imagine pushing a broom for two years, or rolling fuel drums in deep snow is what they just paid 50K for the priveledge of doing for $8/hr at some new job within sight of the machines they so desperately want to fly. The 10% that make the cut, go on to a great career, but the rest walk away dejected. "oh WAIT!" he says....."I'm one of those really hard working, keen guys...I know I'll have to pay my dues" "Just let me show you how smooth and wonderful I can fly a R-22.."

 

They all talk the talk....and if you got a freebie pilot's license, you'll be way less likely to push a broom, roll drums in deep snow, or drive from one end of this country to the other 6 times looking for a job. IF you spend the $50K that you worked like a slave to save up for a pilot's license, I'd wager that you'll try just that little bit harder to get that job.....THAT is the "RIGHT STUFF" I was refering to.

 

Go give it a shot.....Duf, I wish you all the best luck. the day you are buying beers for the crew on your 1000th hour, and you worked hard for every .2, that beer is gonna taste mighty sweet!