Hobbs Time And Flight School

[Jane]

It's an open and shut case that if a school charges same rate for air-time as another does for engine-time, you're getting a better deal. But it's not all about price -- check out all the factors. But lets ignore cost/value.

 

There is an issue that has emerged here that I find disturbing. The Transport Canada definition of flight time, for the purpose of meeting legal minimum requirements, should be unambigious. As blackmac and justfly mentioned, "flight time" IS defined in the Transport Canada AIM . That publication says

 

"Flight Time is the total time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight. This should be recorded in all Pilot Log Books."

 

In the fixed wing world, flight time and air time are quite different -- there's a lot of taxying going on in between. In the helicopter world, on skids, how does the "aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off" until it actually takes off?

 

Under this definition flight time *IS* air time for helicopters on skids, and this is consistent with what many helicopter schools do, but not all. What appears to be being said here is that some flight schools don't follow this definition of flight time for licensing purposes, and instead use engine-on to engine-off. Am I understanding this right?

 

What I am asking is that I thought this was just a billing issue, but it seems that some schools are graduating students with 90-95hrs of flight time based on this TC defintion of flight time, but claiming it to be 100hrs (as the engine was running to 100 hours).

 

If that's the case no wonder Transport Canada are investigating this.

 

Jane

[chopper_guy]

I recently had a discussion with a TC "person" regarding this issue. The jist of the conversation as per my understanding was that the schools were more than willing to change the practice, the end result however, would be a substantial increase in tariffs. Thus, all is in "limbo". The primary culprit being the R22 whose "life" is measured ONLY by the hobbs meter. The 300 also runs a hobbs meter however could revert to alternative means of keeping time.

 

The 47's? well, they are so old, possibly a sundial? Stand down gents, joking, joking!

[Genus]

This link is from TC and their take on the issue, I don't know if it has been ammended or not, but it is pretty self explainatory.

 

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/general/...rs/gapl0502.htm

[412driver]

so what it says is........

 

 

GENERAL AVIATION POLICY LETTER GAPL 2005-02

 

2005-09-07

 

 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Subject

Definition of “flight time”.

 

Purpose

Clarify the Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs) definition of “flight time” with respect to helicopters.

 

Reference

Canadian Aviation Regulations Part I - General Provisions, Sub-part 1 Interpretation

 

Background

CAR 101.01(1) defines “flight time” as meaning “the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight”.

 

For aeroplanes, the meaning is clear and for helicopters that can taxi on the ground, “flight time” is interpreted as it is for aeroplanes. For helicopters on skids, it has been interpreted to mean, “skids off to skids on”. In this case, “flight time” and airtime would be the same.

Annex 1, Chapter 1, of the Convention on International Civil Aviation sets out separate “flight time” definitions for aeroplanes and helicopters. For helicopters, “flight time” is “The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.” In Canada, some have applied the ICAO definition of the helicopter “flight time” for helicopters on skids.

 

Action

In order to clarify the interpretation of the definition of “flight time” with respect to helicopters as it applies to flight crew licensing, “flight time” shall be as it is set out in Annex 1: “The total time from the moment a helicopter’s rotor blades start turning until the moment the helicopter finally comes to rest at the end of the flight, and the rotor blades are stopped.”

 

In order to align formally with the Convention, a Notice of Proposed Amendment proposing a separate definition for helicopter “flight time” will be presented to the Part I Technical Committee.

 

Effective Date

September 1, 2005

 

Expiry Date

This Policy Letter will expire with the appropriate amendment to the CARs

[412driver]

so before we all go AHA!!!!

 

there is the arguement that students be charged only airtime HOWEVER, then would the student only log the airtime? according to the regs he/she is allowed to log the "flight time".

 

if schools that go on the hobbs will be required to charge by airtime, guaranteed, there would be at least a 20% increase in the rates

 

so my question would be the other side of the coin. if the schools that don't use the hobbs but only charge for when the a/c is ready to fly (i.e. skids up/down), are their students allowed to log an extra...say.... .2 per flight? the .2 being for start up and shut down?

[Skids Up]

Why don't they just log what they pay for?

 

If it's start-up to shut-down, log it. If it's from T/O to Landing, log it. Then you are getting the 100 hours of time you paid for.

 

Not in the business of training, but I still think that hairs are being split when the complaint is made about which offers "more" training.

 

I would think that there never has been 2 students who learned the exact same amount in the exact same amount of time.

 

If that was the case, none of would be as great (or greater!) as we think we are...

 

Some will learn faster and be better pilots. Some will learn slower and be better poilots. Some won't learn, no matter how much "flight" time or "air" time is thrown at them.

 

Sorry, sometimes life sucks.... Get over it. :prop:

 

Why don't they just log what they pay for?

 

If it's start-up to shut-down, log it. If it's from T/O to Landing, log it. Then you are getting the 100 hours of time you paid for.

 

Not in the business of training, but I still think that hairs are being split when the complaint is made about which offers "more" training.

 

I would think that there never has been 2 students who learned the exact same amount in the exact same amount of time.

 

If that was the case, none of would be as great (or greater!) as we think we are...

 

Some will learn faster and be better pilots. Some will learn slower and be better poilots. Some won't learn, no matter how much "flight" time or "air" time is thrown at them.

 

Sorry, sometimes life sucks.... Get over it. :prop:

[Jane]

This link is from TC and their take on the issue, I don't know if it has been ammended or not, but it is pretty self explainatory.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/general/...rs/gapl0502.htm

Ah! Here arrives a real expert! Perhaps your nick should be Genius, rather than Genus?

 

I could not believe that this issue was so vague, and Transport Canada was just ignoring it.

 

Thanks, Genius, for enlightening us

 

Jane

[Jane]

If it's start-up to shut-down, log it. If it's from T/O to Landing, log it. Then you are getting the 100 hours of time you paid for.

 

Not in the business of training, but I still think that hairs are being split when the complaint is made about which offers "more" training.

Hey Skids Up,

 

I think Genus has given us the official answer to the underlying question of how to log flight time.

 

The "which is more" is pretty straighforward. It's like going to two gas stations. One sells fuel at $3 per US gallon, and one at $3 per Imperial gallon.

 

I'll argue that the $3/Imperial gallon is better value (Imperial gallon is 20% bigger than US gallon). But aren't you are arguing that it's the same as you get the same number of gallons?

 

Likewise $430/hr for airtime is going to be better value that $430/hr for engine time. Open and shut case. Sorry! (I totally agree, however, that PRICE is not the only factor!)

 

Jane

[Helilog56]

(I totally agree, however, that PRICE is not the only factor!)

 

Jane

 

Now there is a statement that speaks louder than numbers......when one has made up their mind to go ahead with learning to fly, pick the school that fits for "you".....listen to that inner voice that said, "Yep, this feels right for me".

It's the people, the atmosphere, the attitude, or whatever you want to call it, that will make up your mind on where to go.....it's up to "you", to make it what it should be.

It is the start of an adventure, that will be a large part of your life........enjoy :up:

[412driver]

well said :up: