Astar Longline Windows...out Or In?

[helimat]

now wouldn't that be a ride though....takes it back to the old days of open cockpits......many of you crusty old farts will remember those days.

 

I just had to go in a ride in a machine that had holes in the windscreen a couple of days ago- we had to ferry it back to base after vandals got to it. :cold: Nothing that $4500 worth of plastic and a bunch of proseal couldn't fix!

 

Wouldn't think of removing windows on purpose... Let's try to keep the aircraft intact before lifting off! Especially with shiny new red and white 407's patrolling the field!! :cop:

[jetbox]

As some of you may or may not know, some companies refuse to give there pilots an advantage when it comes to operations. Such is the case with the long line window in or out question.

 

Wow! That's a pretty unbelievable statement! Blaming the operator because you don't have enough skill to do the job within the confines your aircraft's type certificate??

Of all the seismic, bird towing and drill moving jobs (including in the Arctic) I've been on, removing the window was never and issue. Replacing it because of wear and scratches yes, but taking it out alltogether, no. Learning to do precision longlining in an Astar is an aquired skill but it's not that hard!!! The only thing that makes it a hazard is pilot incompetence!

[helimat]

Wow! That's a pretty unbelievable statement! Blaming the operator because you don't have enough skill to do the job within the confines your aircraft's type certificate?? Of all the seismic, bird towing and drill moving jobs (including in the Arctic) I've been on, removing the window was never and issue. Replacing it because of wear and scratches yes, but taking it out alltogether, no. Learning to do precision longlining in an Astar is an aquired skill but it's not that hard!!! The only thing that makes it a hazard is pilot incompetence!

 

Jetbox gets right to the point! I am with him 100%! Let's keep the aircraft flying with all the parts on!!

 

I like the new look, Fenestron...

[Jammed left]

Helimat..this isn't a question of skill. Some of the most skilled longliners that I know have taken the window out from time to time. Taking the window out wasn't something that I had done until one of them suggested how to reduce your workload...which a pilot with an experience like you've listed would potentially be interested in (I'm not petitioning you to take the wind out here, just saying that it sounds like you would understand that a tour of 8's and 9's takes its toll on a guy)

 

I was like you. I'd never taken the window out, but side by side with this fella, we had some time to talk and I was mentioning what a pain it was, even with good, clean chinook windows...to have to turn the machine to cast a shadow over the longline window while searching for the bag on the ground, in the long late afternoon sun. He suggested the window removal as method of reducing the work load...immediately I reeled in horror. "Why that's illegal" my mind screamed. But the siren's song of less fatigue won over, and I removed the window....and to my amazment, the world was clear. In fact, the window out and a couple other suggestions ...I figure I have reduced the collective fatigue I feel by (an I know it's sometimes unfair to try to quantify these things) probably somewhere in the 25% range from jobs where I've been flying similar hours and conditions.

 

I know it's illegal..however from what I've experienced, it was safer...reducing fatigue, greater visability...so the question is really about this? Is it wrong just because it hasn't been tested and it is therefore and illegal configuration or is it wrong because there is some factor of aerodynamics that I haven't thought about or some other aspect that may have escaped my simple mind.

 

So in my mind, on this very specific issue legal equals less safe, illegal equals safer...and those kind of thoughts always bring out interesting discussion and responses ...

 

shields up!

[skullcap]

Ahmmm, I have around 6000 hrs in Astar, never tried longlining without floor window. Have taken door off many times to the ridicule of some. Have moved bags at -30 with snow and wind blowing without the doors to keep on the move.

 

Was legal but far from comfortable due to cold, would the floor window removed have been a solution, who knows, but hey worth a try,,beats the crap out of frostbite.

 

 

I find the discussion interesting and am going to persue some mods. Afterall that is how we progress.

 

 

 

Thanks jammed left.

 

sc

[Harmonic_Vibe]

I'm with Jetbox!!! I even mow my lawn with a sickle!!! None of those newfangled innovations for me!!!

 

Seriously though, I think it would be great if someone would improve the visibility issue of the Astar. I don't think that pilot incompetence is required to make the job hazardous in some cases. When the sun is low in the a.m. or p.m. and you are in the sun on the backside of a hill it is next to impossible to see what's on the ground. Even in a 205 with the (illegal) cutout in the bubble I have been in the hover with a driller saying "Do ya got me?... I'm right below you!! Straight down!!! Do ya got me?????"... and I can only answer "No... I don't got ya..."... Of course the drillers wash their clothes ever other year so they resemble the earth they're standing on a fair bit....

 

I personally think someone should get an approval so that the window can be removed in an Astar. Until that approval is received I think they should stay in...

 

HV

 

P.S. Skully... are you pursuing this beyond staring dreamily into space? In other words should someone else take up the reins?

[skullcap]

Sweat mother lord, I only was on about it abit ago. Have been too busy drinking baileys and whiskey to do a whole lot since then. But fine, go ahead and giddy up.

 

[Harmonic_Vibe]

Been busy with football and cider myself... nephew at hospital with possible broken foot... his mom all mad at me... life is good... back to work tomorrow... be in touch... stop...

 

HV

[Skids Up]

But if transport comes up to you one day and ask's where your window is you better start praying he's a reasonalbe guy, as you tell him your story.

 

What's the problem??? It just blew out on the last approach :shock:

 

(Sorry, I don't fly the window, so I should just keep quiet I think...)

[VERTICAL REF]

The only time i have seen the window out was when squirtis or I were chewin' Spitz's...works great.

 

I have done 130kts with the window out - no problems. If you feel it is illegal leave in. If you want to makle your longline work easier under certain conditions take it out. Our maintenance staff were quite dilligent to ensure the lower cowling snaps were adjusted tight at all times!

 

When TC grounds every 204, 205 and 212 out there with a hole cut in the bubble, then i would worry about your windowless astar.

 

As per Sully's words of wisdom if you are on a LL job and have to land in deep snow for some reason taking the window out might not be the best decision. I have had to remove copious amouts of snow from that region due to my own stupidity.

 

If TC ever ramps your astar and by chance notices the windowless hole i would respond with a prompt, quizzical "Really, ya gotta be $hitting me...no way???...hmm! magine that!"

 

Believe me, there are a lot bigger A/W items to worry about than a non structural piece of plastic.