Accumulate And Average Hours Over Contracts?

[Gypsy rotor]

The helicopter industry has allowed its customers to negotiate and dictate averaging hours over contracts with the exception of Alberta :up: . BC and Saskatchewan averaged 3 to 4 day contracts over the term, Manitoba, Parks Canada and Ontario averaged over contract and extensions. :down: What a deal for them, since they only guarantee you a 2 to 4 day. Sometimes these contracts work out for the operators and the pilots. I am sure that others have felt similar pain of the sitting on the ramp for 12 hours on IA and no flight pay due to the structure of the contract. Its seems to me that we should not be subjected to this. We are the only industry that does this. As an industry we should not average and accumulate, but be paid the standard rate of 4 hours a day, not averaged as Alberta pays. For the health of the industry, I feel this is necessary.

[ArniePye]

Bad news; Alberta is seriously considering averaging now.

 

Other comments:

 

Alberta dictates the tariff rate.

 

BC only pays 85% of the tariff rate for unflown revenue.

 

Saskatchewan is great because, unlike other provinces, they do not limit you to 8 hours per day (except when an overhead clusterf*** team takes over); consequently, you can often make up for the slow times in a good fire flap.

 

I had to laugh when OMNR called us this spring. They said (verbatim):

 

"This in the Ontario Ministry of Natural Resources calling. We would like to offer you a 3-day 205 contract. What can you do for us?"

 

When management offered that we could be available immediately if it included 2-way ferry paid (*at least* inside the contract).

 

MNR's reply: "Oh, well I guess we'll have to call your competition."

 

Withing several hours, 3 205's came thru for fuel, heading to Ontario.

 

The next day, OMNR called back, agreeing to pay the 2-way ferry.

 

Even if the other machines got one-way ferry paid, they still had to fly at least 8 hours on their own ticket. Given that it takes 3-3.5 revenue hours to pay for one non-revenue hour, they would have needed 24-28 revenue hours just to break even.

 

All of us ended up being on for 6 days, earning 24 hours of revenue. In this initial period, we were probably the only ones to make money.

 

Now why do companies screw themselves like that?

 

AP

[Blackmac]

You are encommpasing the whole helicopter industry around a problem the "Owners Club" is responsible for and basically have there own association to do their lobbying for them.

 

As you are aware I am an ex-contracting officer and you can state any thing you want "Statement of Manditory Requirements" to be met if you want the contract.

In the RFP a government or company can state what ever they want as long as they are within the law.

 

It's called DE-REGULATION of the aviation industry and you have been behind the 8 BALL since 1987.

 

DO YOU REALIZE IT TOOK YOU ALMOST "TWENTY YEARS" TO WAKE UP HURLER,

or did you get screwed on the averaging of minimums, on the extension.

 

Also your so-called Tariff and Rate structure on file at your place of business does not mean jack shyte unless accepted in writing by the person requesting your services and included in the contract verbatim.

 

So, give us an answer, GUV.

[ArniePye]

huh? GUV?

[412driver]

to be honest...this summer i didn't give a rats @ss how their contracts were worded.............

 

MY contract said 2 hours per day guaranteed, non-averaged so if i flew 8 hours yesterday and nothing today...i still got 2 hours paid for today......

 

if i sat for a week on spec? 2 hours a day paid...........

 

let management look after management and their contracts...YOU need to take care of yourselves

 

if YOU accept a lousy contract you have no one to blame but yourself

 

i had companies calling me so needing pilots that they offered 205 endorsements to 1000 hour pilots if i could send them one..........

 

from what i saw this summer, it was a pilots market :up:

[ArniePye]

I hear ya.

 

And giving a 1000 hour pilot a medium endorsement is not doing him a favour.

 

I had 3300 hours before I saw a medium and I think that was just about right. At least with a JetRanger/LongRanger you can pull as much torque as you need to get out of trouble.

 

From personal experience the torque gauge on a 206 stops at 120 or so. It just keeps metering fuel, and thank bjeezus, cause if it didn't I wouldn't be around to talk about it.

 

Try pulling that stunt in a medium and you're overpitched before you can kiss yer butt b'bye, as well as that of your 14 passengers (eewwww). The extra experience and serious lessons I learned in the light machines left me well-prepared to fly the mediums when I was ready. As a result, I've stayed alive and safe in the Hueys since I started flying them in '85.

 

I know that everyone has a different learning rate; I also know that most 1000 hour guys think think they're ready. I wouldn't have know any different. I think 3000 hours is a much safer guide for making the transition.

 

AP

[Helilog56]

I hear ya.

 

And giving a 1000 hour pilot a medium endorsement is not doing him a favour.

 

I had 3300 hours before I saw a medium and I think that was just about right. At least with a JetRanger/LongRanger you can pull as much torque as you need to get out of trouble.

 

From personal experience the torque gauge on a 206 stops at 120 or so. It just keeps metering fuel, and thank bjeezus, cause if it didn't I wouldn't be around to talk about it.

 

Try pulling that stunt in a medium and you're overpitched before you can kiss yer butt b'bye, as well as that of your 14 passengers (eewwww). The extra experience and serious lessons I learned in the light machines left me well-prepared to fly the mediums when I was ready. As a result, I've stayed alive and safe in the Hueys since I started flying them in '85.

 

I know that everyone has a different learning rate; I also know that most 1000 hour guys think think they're ready. I wouldn't have know any different. I think 3000 hours is a much safer guide for making the transition.

 

AP

 

Well, there you have it folks.......it sounds like learning to fly by "trial and error"....with heavy emphasis error.

Did you have any training and supervision A.P.????

 

Read what you posted carefully, there is something dreadfully wrong with your "approach" and advice..... :down:

[ArniePye]

HL, your reply seemed a little patronizing; if my previous post gave the impression that my first few years were one death-defying crisis after another, I apologize. :-)

 

My intention was to highlight the fact that anyone's first few years involve the learning of very important lessons and some of these formative experiences can (and most likely will) entail situations in which a serious crash is barely averted, if you're lucky.

 

I trained at Canadore in the late 70s. Instruction was comprehensive. They took a lot of care to teach us to fly safely and to survive. But, as we all know, there is still so much stuff we have to learn and practice on our own.

 

By the time I had about 700 hours, I had my first mountain course and began doing jobs in the heavy rocks, which as you probably appreciate, is a very unforgiving environment.

 

Part of the reason I was able to survive those first few years is that I was flying a 206, which would let me pull whatever torque I needed to save my life.

 

Don't get me wrong, HL. I would never overtorque to lift a load. I never have and I never will. Overtorquing any machine should only happen in an emergency to save the lives of the pilot and passengers. Any young pilot reading this should understand that abusing any machine to get a job done is completely unprofessional and can damage the aircraft.

 

What I am saying is that, for instance, if you find youself at the mouth of a cirque in downflow with very little airspeed (cause you were on short final) and your sink rate is increasing, a JetRanger will let you pull what you need to save your life.

 

If my previous post seemed cavalier about overtorquing, I was not making myself clear. My point was that I was lucky to spend my first 7 years in a machine that could save my butt without overpitching.

 

Once I had abuut 3000 hours, I did the full Okanagan moutain course in Banff; by that time I had enough time to appreciate and absorb the lessons of advance mountain flying.

 

The closest calls I can remember all happened during my first 3 or 4 years, but I'm glad I continued to fly the the 206 for 7 years because I believe I needed that much time before I was ready to fly mediums.

 

AP

[Rotorboy2]

OK, so back to the thread topic....

 

Averaging doesn't benefit usually benefit anone except the customer. If the company accepts an averaged contract they should still pay the pilot a daily minimum.

 

It's one thing to negotiate a daily min if you're contract but how many F/T or pool pilots get daily mins? Yes, yes, I know, they are employed all year. But realistically, alot of pilots rely on summer to fly lots of hours, usually to make up for a slower winter. The last thing I need is to sit all day and not turn a blade in the middle of July or Aug.

 

I also heard AB is going to start averaging. :down:

[Helilog56]

Back off topic for a moment........A.P. it was not ny intent to patronize......i am perhaps a bit sensitive over what i read, as we just laid to rest a good friend that died in a mysterious 206 crash.

Unfortunately, i took your post as a bit on the cavalier side. There are a lot of young and impressionable students, prospective students, and new pilots on this site and i would hate to think of what some may have read into your first post.

Good training, common sense, and most of all preplanning help "avoid" getting into situations, that requires a pilot to severely overtorque an aircraft, to bail themselves out.

But alas, we are all but human and yes we make mistakes.