Training Bonds

[Ace]

Has anyone had any dealings with training bonds which need to be paid back to the employer.

 

Legal? Could the training be classed as a business expense for the company? Can it be written off my the employee as training?

 

Any experience would be great.

[Guest sharky]

Legal? If you sign it, it most certainly is.

 

What is the bond for?

 

What is your flight experience?

 

Is the employer making an investment in you, and trying to protect that investment?

 

Or, is the employer trying to stop people from quitting so frequently?

 

If it's #2, alarm bells should be ringing. If it's #1, then it's your call. You need to ask yourself a few questions.

 

What is the time period of the bond? Is it reasonable for the training you are going to receive? Type endorsements are typically a 12 month commitment. I rarely hear of someone being bonded for an endorsement though, just an agreement.

 

Do you have to pay money up front? If so, then you have just ‘paid’ for your training and are not obligated to sign or commit to anything.

 

Will your wages be on par with the ‘going rate’ or ‘industry standard’? This is what I refer to as double-dipping; being held to a financial bond AND being paid sub-standard wages in order to “offset training costs”.

 

Are you protected if the company goes out of business or has to lay you off? (Jetsgo, anyone?)

 

What if you are pressured into breaking the law?

 

What is the recourse if you resign for safety reasons?

 

A good bond would be one that does not hold you to any financial commitment unless you resign. And then, that amount to be repaid is pro-rated for the duration of the time period remaining.

 

The amount of the bond should be operating costs only, not full tariff. Make sure you clarify this.

 

Wages would be included in the bond. If the time period is substantial, over 12 months, include an annual wage increase as well, unless your flight experience will take you into another salary bracket during that time.

 

There would be a clause to let you off the hook if the company folds, or lays you off. The safety issues I mentioned earlier would require a paper trail to be legal.

 

Also to be noted is employers are required by law to put up to 5 hours of training to new hires, regardless of experience. Some employers will take advantage of these 5 hours and give you a type endorsement at the same time. These are training expenses.

 

All that being said, there are a lot of good companies out there that will train you as they see fit, without asking for anything but your word. The more qualifications you have, the more money you can make them.

 

And last but not least, speaking only for myself, I would try to negotiate an agreement instead of a bond. If that fails I would move on.

 

Best wishes.

[lamanated]

on a new hiring it should hold up or a government employee also otherwise It should have been covered here as endentured employement and has no weight as far as we knew at NMH

[cap]

ACE -----"Canadian Case Law" and a case I was involved in that reached the Supreme Court of Canada back in the late 60's states that you may take thy Training Bond and wipe thy *** with it. Signing it only means that you have been "horn-swaggled" into being an "Indentured Servant" (a direct quote by the way) and your signing means nothing in law.

 

P-L-E-A-S-E do not take my word for this, but take the time to get a free 1/2 hr of legal advice on same from a lawyer with experience in Labour Standards, both Federal and Provincial.

[xrkyle]

If you consider yourself a small business owner, you can deduct the cost of the training as it is a business expense that will help you generate income (for your business).

 

I just switched employers and had an agreement with my old employer regarding some training I took in November. If I left or was fired within a one year period, I'd be on the hook for the balance of the cost which was prorated on a monthly basis. I left in January so I'm making good on the agreement by paying back the amount owing over the next 4 months. I just had my current employer cover the cost when I was negotiating my salary and benefits. Not sure if those kinds of arrangements can be made in this industry or not but if someone wants you bad enough, they'll pay.

[lineworker]

I have known a few people who left before the time on their contracts were up, I haven't seen anyone pay anything back, but I think that was because Canadian would lay off their lower time or junior employees for 6 months of the year, and they'd go elsewhere and then Canadian would remind them, hey, remember we trained you and you agreed to work for us for 3 years?

 

I believe their response was, yeah, and didn't you say you'd employ us for 3 years ? not 1.5 out of 3, gotta make a living, see you later.

[cap]

JWRalph ---------Yes sir, what you have just stated was EXACTLY what I was told, warned and cautioned about back in the late 60's. I don't "push" very well and never did, so off to court we go for a few years. The result? The Supreme Court ruled in favour of me and I also won the follow-up lawsuit regrding the company's many attempts to use my actions as a poor reference as to my character with regrards other companies. The second lawsuit was settled real quick by them out-of-court. Lastly, the cost of all expenses paid-out on my behalf while employed, were paid back on reasonable terms and paid in full.

 

Bottom line on all this......... I'll sign any agreement with regards some repayment schedule for training with a company if I deem it to be necessary and that I want it that badly.We'll agree on a repayment schedule that I can handle and that I deem to be fair. I'll seek the advice of my lawyer also. That is the same arrangement I would expect to make with any lending institution elsewhere. Telling me that I'm "indentured" to toil for the same firm for ANY period of time as part of that repayment and I'll ask you to put that all in writing. The moment you've done that small item for me and I'll ensure that you walk a tad lighter in your shoes from a less-full wallet and you'll be much wiser in the future about what you put down in writing.

[Ace]

Sharky,

 

Where would I find the legislation regarding the 5 hours of initial training being supplied by the employer.

 

Cap,

 

Where might I find your "horn-swaggled" and "Indentured Servant" clauses?

 

Would be great to have some legal written text on this subject. Thanks guys.

 

Thanks to all for comments, it looks as though I have hit a nerve on this subject, and maybe many more comments to come.

 

Due to the impending moves around the industry for the unforseeable future, I think that training bonds will be rife, in the hope to try and retain employees. I wonder if there would be some other way to retain these people....

[Guest sharky]

Ace, my error.

 

The minimum and maximum amounts of flight initial training are company specific (TC approved), and can be found in your company's Ops Manual. The last place I worked was 5 hrs max. The place I'm at now is 2-3 hrs minimum for initial training (depending if endorsed or not), and 1 hr min on each type for recurrent training. It's all in the wording.

 

Here's the CAR for each:

 

702 Training Program and

703 Training Program

 

Both contain the same wording:

Type training programs are to be titled as to the type to which they apply and include the number of instructional hours to be provided

[cap]

Ace -------do your "due diligence" and find yourself copies of "Canadian Case Law". They are a series of books available at most large libraries. Most lawyers will give you at least a 1/2 hr free of cost and they would refer to the same set of books for all the words "verbatim". This is not a law that is somehow stuffed away in secrecy someplace and is commonly known about amongst those in the legal profession and a smattering of Union organizations. I've never done so because the case pre-dated household computers by a bit, but you might also conduct a search through some legal libraries on the internet regarding this info. Again, I'd go the route of using a lawyer who is familiar with Labour Laws for that 1/2 hr to make it clean and fast.

 

 

JWRalph -------what you state is possible, but very highly improbable. If what you stated was probable, it would mean that all or the vast majority of aviation firms all thought and acted the same and with the same ideals and principles. After 42 active years in aviation, plus a mother/father and grandfather also in the business over the eons, I can state categorically that if you can find 5 pilots, 5 engineers or 5 companies that all think the same at any given time, on any given day........well you've seen something not common and seldom seen.

 

From my experience I also absolutely refuse to lump all aviation firms or owners of same into the same pile and paint them all with the same "sh**ty" brush. It's patently unfair because some of those very owners I once flew with, roomed with and were/are good and fair people to know. I've also worked for the "others", but I've never forgotten that any door I use for entry also has a doorknob for exit........and I've used it. There are also a few "un-written rules" that companies expect from me besides just doing my job....and they have a perfect Right to expect them. They expect me not to constantly ***** about them or the company. They take a dim view of me doing that to their other employees and SPECIALLY to customers. They expect me to remember that I am a company advertisment and billboard when in public while wearing ANY company attire. They put their name and crest of the company on all manner of dress and it ain't to make me more handsome ........it's free and cheap advertising for them. What I do or say while wearing that advertising will either reflect badly or flatter the company's image. If I don't like any of the above, then "tough bannanas" because they're payin' the bills, they more to loose than me and for that they get to set the rules.........just like my wife and I manage our home.