Industry Self-management

[Blackmac]

Thanks, Carlhome, your statement says it all and in a very gentlementle fashion.

 

Mr. Jenner:

 

Ego's do not tarnish easily;

 

QUOTE: Jenner

"As a very experienced association manager I can only suggest that building on the positive is more productive than emphasising the negative."

 

You were approached numerous times to resolve the neglect of Engineers and Pilots within HAC and so were at least two Directors and now that the Engineers and Pilots have finally seen the light, you want positive action from this association, HEPAC.

 

"QUOTE"Jenner

"Thanks again for your comments on our preliminary assessment of Industry Self-management. It is far from a done deed and will most certainly be the subject of further discussion which I hope you will all participate in with the same vigour and candour"

 

You are by far the most egocentric self serving person that I have had the pleasure of meeting.

 

We have never confronted the members of HAC we have only tried to negotiate in good faith, it's called communication.

 

Be advised that the members of HEPAC will only communicate with HAC, when you are no longer there.

 

Cheers and have a good life.

 

D.J.(Don) McDougall

President

Helicopter Engineers and Pilots Association, Canada

1044 County Road 44

Oxford Station, ON K0G 1T0

 

Tel:(613) 258-0252

 

E-mail: dmcdougall@netscape.ca

[snark]

Cap,

Has there ever been a time such as the one the industry is facing now? I dont take alot of the planned industry changes to be anything but bureaucracy growing upon itself. I personally do not see any real good coming. My question to you is with the upmost of respect for your aviation history. Do you think IYHO that the helicopter indusrty is any safer now than it was in the 70's? Are the machines any more reliable? Do flight crews make any better judgements? Do you see positive evolution? Just curious- Cheers.

[splitpin]

Thanks, Carlhome, your statement says it all and in a very gentlementle fashion.

 

Mr. Jenner:

 

Ego's do not tarnish easily;

 

QUOTE: Jenner

"As a very experienced association manager I can only suggest that building on the positive is more productive than emphasising the negative."

 

You were approached numerous times to resolve the neglect of Engineers and Pilots within HAC and so were at least two Directors and now that the Engineers and Pilots have finally seen the light, you want positive action from this association, HEPAC.

 

"QUOTE"Jenner

"Thanks again for your comments on our preliminary assessment of Industry Self-management. It is far from a done deed and will most certainly be the subject of further discussion which I hope you will all participate in with the same vigour and candour"

 

You are by far the most egocentric self serving person that I have had the pleasure of meeting.

 

We have never confronted the members of HAC we have only tried to negotiate in good faith, it's called communication.

 

Be advised that the members of HEPAC will only communicate with HAC, when you are no longer there.

 

Cheers and have a good life.

 

D.J.(Don) McDougall

President

Helicopter Engineers and Pilots Association, Canada

1044 County Road 44

Oxford Station, ON K0G 1T0

 

Tel:(613) 258-0252

 

E-mail: dmcdougall@netscape.ca

 

Good show Blackmac!!!

[T-rex]

What do Pilots and Engineers have to do with Operations Certificates anyways gentlemen? I attended HAC and this meeting in particular, The industry has nothing to lose, but may gain better service from HAC on Ops Spec dealings? I deal with Ops manuals and Operations Specs on a daily basis, It can be a slow slow process. What reins do you believe TC is handing over??? If you where at the meeting at HAC one could educate himself on the government process and the lack of voice for HELICOPTERs in general. This new system, gives our industry a voice that can be heard!!!! We as a group can make changes that will help us all!

 

Don't confuse yourself what this whole idea is about! It is about change, and maybe for the good of our industry!

[cap]

Cap,

Has there ever been a time such as the one the industry is facing now? I dont take alot of the planned industry changes to be anything but bureaucracy growing upon itself. I personally do not see any real good coming. My question to you is with the upmost of respect for your aviation history. Do you think IYHO that the helicopter indusrty is any safer now than it was in the 70's? Are the machines any more reliable? Do flight crews make any better judgements? Do you see positive evolution? Just curious- Cheers.

 

 

You may not like my answer, but here goes. You may also ask that question of others here and "Otooley", "Blackmac", "Carholme" and "Splitpin" are some other suggestions of folks who have been "around" as long as me and in one case longer. Their opinions are as valid as mine "in Spades".

 

It's called "Deluxe Evolutionary"..........it's constantly changing in in some stage of "flux" all the time.......some of those ways are extremely subtle and others are "in your face". It can do no more than that because after all the "hootin' and hollerin' is done, the vast majority of the industry is based on the word "CHARTER". The longer the charter, the more stable the given company is and the more that company has a firm foundation into the future to plan and promise things to their employees and others. I personally operate in the exact same fashion and if I have some reason to believe that my income will be drastically or somewhat lower next year than this, then I become conservative in my financial promises and obligations to family members and others.

 

Are a/c any more reliable? The same answer applies now as it did eons ago.......what company are you referring to, who's the DOM, pilot and onsite engineer?

 

Flight crews have many more "tools" disposal nowadays than they did eons ago, but mistakes are still being made. Plain old "common sense" isn't any more commonplace or less commonplace now than it was before.

 

Do I see positive evolution? Read my first sentence above. Put it this way.......when I started in this business the only person who got "2 weeks ON and 2 weeks OFF" was God". I've been treated the same as God for many years now......so there's been some definite "evolving" going on.

[cap]

Cap,

Has there ever been a time such as the one the industry is facing now? I dont take alot of the planned industry changes to be anything but bureaucracy growing upon itself. I personally do not see any real good coming. My question to you is with the upmost of respect for your aviation history. Do you think IYHO that the helicopter indusrty is any safer now than it was in the 70's? Are the machines any more reliable? Do flight crews make any better judgements? Do you see positive evolution? Just curious- Cheers.

 

 

You may not like my answer, but here goes. You may also ask that question of others here and "Otooley", "Blackmac", "Carholme" and "Splitpin" are some other suggestions of folks who have been "around" as long as me and in one case longer. Their opinions are as valid as mine "in Spades".

 

It's called "Deluxe Evolutionary"..........it's constantly changing in in some stage of "flux" all the time.......some of those ways are extremely subtle and others are "in your face". It can do no more than that because after all the "hootin' and hollerin' is done, the vast majority of the industry is based on the word "CHARTER". The longer the charter, the more stable the given company is and the more that company has a firm foundation into the future to plan and promise things to their employees and others. I personally operate in the exact same fashion and if I have some reason to believe that my income will be drastically or somewhat lower next year than this, then I become conservative in my financial promises and obligations to family members and others.

 

Are a/c any more reliable? The same answer applies now as it did eons ago.......what company are you referring to, who's the DOM, pilot and onsite engineer?

 

Flight crews have many more "tools" at their disposal nowadays than they did eons ago, but mistakes are still being made. Plain old "common sense" isn't any more commonplace or less commonplace now than it was before.

 

Do I see positive evolution? Read my first sentence above. Put it this way.......when I started in this business the only person who got "2 weeks ON and 2 weeks OFF" was God I believe. I've been treated the same as God for many years now......so there's been some definite "evolving" going on.

[Over-Talk]

A quote from Blackmac (HEPAC) to Brian Jenner (HAC).

"Be advised that the members of HEPAC will only communicate with HAC, when you are no longer there."

 

With statements like that I suspect that HAC and Brian Jenner will still be around when it is HEPAC that is no longer here !!

 

Pilots and engineers will not see an improvement in our relationships with management (HAC) if their voice (HEPAC) adopts an attitude like that.

 

Most pilots and engineers already know this.

That's why HEPAC failed the first time, and that's why it's failing again in it's latest attempt at life, somewhere in the depths of this forum.

This rebirth is being led by JWRalph, a character well known to many of us.......under many different names. JWRalph is also known for making statements that seem to disrupt the pilot and engineering group, rather than amalgamate it.

 

It's no wonder there are only 4 regular posters on the re-born HEPAC forum........and so few people voting for it's resuscitation.

 

How can HEPAC comment on Industry Self Management when it can't even manage itself ???

 

Yes, we need a voice. But let's talk with some tact, diplomacy, respect and manners.

[splitpin]

A quote from Blackmac (HEPAC) to Brian Jenner (HAC).

"Be advised that the members of HEPAC will only communicate with HAC, when you are no longer there."

 

With statements like that I suspect that HAC and Brian Jenner will still be around when it is HEPAC that is no longer here !!

 

Pilots and engineers will not see an improvement in their relationships with management (HAC) if their voice (HEPAC) adopts an attitude like that.

 

Most pilots and engineers already know this.

That's why HEPAC failed the first time, and that's why it's failing again in it's latest attempt at life, somewhere in the depths of this forum.

This rebirth is being led by JWRalph, a character well known to many of us.......under many different names. JWRalph is also known for making statements that seem to disrupt the pilot and engineering group, rather than amalgamate it.

 

It's no wonder there are only 4 regular posters on the re-born HEPAC forum........and so few people voting for it's resuscitation.

 

How can HEPAC comment on Industry Self Management when it can't even manage itself ???

 

Yes, we need a voice. But let's talk with some tact, diplomacy, respect and manners.

 

Over-Talk: Are you management???

[Over-Talk]

Am I management ??? HA HA HA !!

 

No way !! A long way from it.

 

But I know how I would like to be spoken to if I was.

[carholme]

As Overtalk points out, it does seem that there are only a few people who are even discussing this issue.

I post because of the concerns I have and I do question groups who have been around for many years and have done nothing to hear us in the past. I neither promote or suggest any group is capable of the task. I wanted to try and get members of the community to disucss the issue and hear what they thought about it. From the limited response on this forum, it speaks directly to the industry.

We are doing what we have done for decades, sitting on our *****, waiting for someone else to pick up the ball.

As stated previously, I am on the back side of my career. If the issue is so unimportant to everybody, my opinion isn't worth a hill of beans. But I guarantee you that somebody is coming to micro manage you, you will pay for it and the cycle will start all over again.

On the issue of TC implementing SMS and reducing it's oversight and the other considerations of Bill C-6, we took a stand on our own and are just waiting to hear from our MP whether or not we will be heard at the committee meetings in Ottawa, when the house re-convenes. There are many issues at stake and many people in the aviation commumity are aware of them to some degree but overall there is very little mention from the pilots and engineers and support people, the people who actually do the work.

 

Regards

 

carholme