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A Time And A Place Fo Everything


Guest bag swinnger
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BD6 and Touchdown....

 

........thank you both for the info. Does make sense and I certainly understand and agree for most jobs. The Arctic environment is what I had always wondered about though. It just seemed like it would be beneficial to sling at night when it's dark six to seven months of the year.

 

:wacko::blink: As for incidents in Vortex and in our military flight safety newsletters I think we're all in the same boat so to speak..... :huh: We've had our share of challenges too.. ;):P

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Not to be the devils' advoacte here but if demonstrating vortex ring is hard on an aircraft then I sure as **** don't want to be flying in it!!! :(:blink::blink::blink: That aircraft should not be type certified in canada if thats the case. Next thing you know there will be an AD that says you cannot practice hydraulics off... :wacko:

 

In production longlining (which are the only times i have gotten into vortex ring!) if your "rockin' you are on the edge of the "buffet" all day long! I have never experienced vortex ring with a full load / max gross load - always with a light load or the empty hook! And I have NEVER lowered the pole to get out of it! Which is the "proper" training school correction. Go figure...

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TD I'm not sure what your telling your students, but wth 5000+ longlining VRS has nothing to do GW, It does however have alot to do with rate of descent and relative wind. It's usally experienced with a light load or empty hook and high rate of descente usually downwind. Again I'm in total agreement with Vert-Ref. B)

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I'd be careful with the statement that gross weight has nothing to do with VRS there Big Duke, that could be missleading. High GW sure can make things worse and it certianly helps induce the required rate of decent of 70 to130% of the velocity of the downward flowing air to get the whole thing happening? Maybe just maybe we are more carefull of the ROD and relitive wind when heavy? ;):blink:

 

twitch

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Hey twitch, has been a while! ;)

 

I agree that high or max gross weight does not help in the recovery from VRS, but just because you are at max gross weight does not mean you are more susceptible to suffer from VRS. My rate of descent is determined by "disc loading" and can be high or low regardless of the all up weight of my aircraft!

 

I most certainly will agree that my "disc loading" is more precise at MGW. To remind myself, I do believe we need a minimal forward speed, high rate of descent and a high power or collective setting. At MGW we already have a higher power or collective setting but we are usually at a more mininmal rate of descent as well! You are adding to one but taking from the other... :huh: yes? no?

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<_< While GW is not one of the conditions for VRS, I stand by my point that it's a factor in setting yourself up. "twitch" is right there. The more air you disturb ie. heavy load/heavy a/c with high pitch, the closer you get to a wild ride if you fulfill the other requirements. The statement can be made that "a logging machine rides this thin line closer than a helicopter with paying passengers on a normal approach". The operative word is "normal" of course. I've found that as a pilot transitions to heavier equipment he may need cautioning about increased hazard. What you can do in a light single will burn you in a medium or heavy. Why? Weight, momentum. and the amount of disturbed air below.

:shock: Not wanting to date myself too much I must admit that my VRS experience was flying chokers with a B47. Can't get much lighter than that. :wacko:

No not that old. :P

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Guest CHEVY II

As Duke mentioned, I too have seen VRS more often with low GW's. I suppose that the difference is one is normally more careful and "loaded up" on approach with a load Vs an empty hook. Touchdown, I don't normally rely on guages to tell me when VRS is imminent, as my head is generally out-the-widow, I rely on the feeling...

Touchdown, you may be old, but I bet your B47 wasn't quite as early as that one in the pic :D:D

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Disc loading and its corellation to MGW are a very close relationship. I have never flown heavies but from the 47 to the 212, I have never experienced more VRS than in an as350B, which has the highest disc loading of any helicopter i have flown. Chokers in a 47, hehehe, i was just glad when the **** thing got off the ground! B)

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