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A Time And A Place Fo Everything

Guest bag swinnger

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:o 407 you're right on all accounts.

I too was light when I enjoyed this problem, both times.

I agree "feel" is what tells you when your close, except at night when the VSI is a help.

And yes, you caught me, that's not my machine. That's when 47's were flown by men with their hair in the breeze, hats flipped up, and a smoke in their mouth. Now a days we don't smoke but it's still nice to hang outside in the breeze. :prop:

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Basicly it's just a matter of getting downflow and up flow through the disk at the same time (downflow out near the tip and upflow further in) and BINGO another vortex forms inside the disk and away goes the rug!!! :shock: :shock: :shock:

Vref is right aircraft type and disk loading plays a part also.



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:( You guys apperently don't work Vertical reference for a living. <_< TD I have a great respect for you if you flew chokers in B47, Unfortunetly I'am not sure what A/C would have relied on the 400 lb bundle @ 60 kts to support it's logging operations. Again, I caution you in refering GTOW as having relevance. Students that might be transitioning to a bigger A/C should know that regardless of weight, if you fly an approach downwind with a high rate of descente, you will more than likely experience VRS. GTOW has little to do with VRS and has a lot to do with pilots knowing there flight profile. I agree that the heavier you are the worse it will be, but that has nothing to do with the what got the pilot there in the first place. I've flown extensive VR work with heavy's, mediums, intermediates and lights. Gross Take Off Weight has little to do with VRS, this condtion is usually a loss of situational awarness that has led the pilot into believeing that he/she has the world by the tail. I've flown alot of wrecks out, that would beg to differ. :bye:
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Just to see how much fire I'll get in, but to recover from Vortex Ring State (VRS) I teach that there are three ways to do it.


Start at the basics, the 'stuff' needed to get into it:

Rate of descend of at least 300 feet/minute

SOME power applied (Doesn't specify how much, but usually around 18"/MAP in the 300CB)

Speed less than ETL (12-15 Knots)(Airspeed of course)


Now to demonstrate the manoeuver I slow down on the upwind at altitude, after completing HASEL checks and so on, turn downwind and set power at 18" MAP and continue to slow down. At some point you'll start to descend, and if you get into it immedialtely you'll know. At this point I'll raise the collective VERY slightly, and we will get into it worse, with the sypmtoms increasing in effect.


Now is the time to recover and here are the three methods:

1. Lower collective, don't like that one, cause you'll most likely e close to the ground with limited sopace when it really happens

2. Lower collective and get speed, better but not my favorurite either

3. Gat airspeed, in any direction as needed, and you are able to climb out after loosing about 50-100 feet after initializing recovery.


Now I like to say it is better to be proactive rather than reactive! So I teach them the VRS triangle (just like the fire triangle). You need three things to get into it, if you keep at least one of the items out of your flying anytime, then there is no problem!


Hope I won't attract too much heat...

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Hey Big Duke I think you are missing the point we are making. Sure you can get into VRS heavy or light. It's just, let's say "magnified" when you are near max gross, no matter what aircraft you are in. Maybe were are getting tangled up in the terms abit. I'm not tring to compare 500's to 61's its all relitive to the precentage of your maximum weight. I hope I made my point a little clearer!!!!!



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Twitch, I live in the point!!! 5-7 hrs a day, everyday on the end of the line.Thankfully at least I've got two engines :up:. I think we are now officially chasing our respective tails. :D


Vert-Ref has spilled the beans again. ;) This technique is by far the quickest recovery procedure :up: , I'am very suprised as to why training schools and check pilots don't teach it, especially if you are working production longling in your daily operations. VR, dude if ya keep teachin' these guys all the tricks were both going to be in the soup line. :D:P Got your PM, and would have to totally agree, it's actually a little scary. ;)

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