A Time And A Place Fo Everything

[Ice Floe]

Winnie,

Don't take this the wrong way, but how long can you expect to demonstrate this without it eventually biting you back?

[Big Duke 6]

Now for a real pissing contest Just kidding. I did however want ask the training community, Why these recovery techinques are not covered when teaching VRS. I know when I do recurrent VR training we always brief and execute a few to make the canadite realize that lateral cyclic is far more beneficial in minamizing distance over the ground, as well as reducing an altitude penalty. It is the most efficant way to get the helicopter into "Clean Air". The other question was left seat emergency training, if it's applicable to your fleet. I'am suprised how even very experiencd drivers get "helmet fire" when demonstrating a recovery procedure from the other seat. The company I work for does both, and for new hires this sometimes is there first exposure to this type of training. Why is this not taught earlier in there training, either at initial CPL(H) completion or on company recurrency. Our minimum requirement is 5000 hrs TT with an extensive VR background, and we still see pilot's trying to recover the old way. Now for TD's, and Twitch's benefit , I would like to clarify the question. Why is this technique not taught at lower levels of training. Or is Lateral cyclic recovery something totaly new to the "Flight training community". Afterall we are all trying to maintain a standard, either at the inital phase of training or at a company level are we not? This a very good example of not having the distance or altitude to recover with the conventional procedure.

[Big Duke 6]

My applogies on the Quality of the photo. I have a much better picture of the 212's impact, but I'am having difficulty loading it. :oops: The intended landing was 15m below the wreckage, this company is no longer in business in case any of you are wondering. To provide a safe and efficant service to our customers is generally the mandate of most companys. The best safety device in any A/C is a well trained crew.

[RDM]

Icefloe,

 

watahyaat? You still yanking that sewer pipe around the island.

 

Must be growing tired of the bird towing, or should I say all the money your makin :up:

 

 

ohhh....and Big Duke, someone should talk to that pilot, never even tied his blades down, sheesh :shock: :shock:

 

on a serious note............that gotta suck, ouch!

[twitch]

Good oh Big Duke.. You got to keep it simple for me.

 

Maybe some of the pilots you see were trained east of the Rockies where many of the instructors never had much to do with high hover, steep approach production work where maybe it may be more likely to happen. Now before all you high time well experienced instructors jump down my throat, I'm just making the observation that maybe some of the lower time instructors in the flat land never heard of that particular method. Say out of Buttonville were there isn't much logging or seismic being done right now Plus I don’t think that many companies make it a priority, it probably doesn’t even show on their training forms. From what I've seen over the years not many production drivers "settle down" to become instructors... Just my opinion of course.

 

twitch

[Big Duke 6]

I would have agree with ya Twitch, on the hole east thing. But I'm suprised that company check pilots don't teach this to new hires. This type of recovery really works, regardless if you are doing prouduction work or are breaking out @ DH, not that the A/C would be that slow, but ya get the point. In the interest of flight safety don't you think that these recovery techinques should be covered, this is way more likely to occur than say an engine failure, no matter where you are flying. I'am not saying that it's right or wrong. I just think that there are a hundred ways to skin a cat. And maybe just maybe, we as an industry need to communicate more so that instructors and check pilots have all of the tools in there arsenal to adequately prepare pilots for real world situations, regardless if your in Bottonville or Revelstoke. I'am not trying to stir the pot, I'am simply asking a legitimate question to the indusry as a whole. :up:

[twitch]

Couldn't agree more.....A point could be made that the guy's (girls) that don't spend all their time on the end of line may need to have the lesson reinforced more often cause they're not riding the bubble all the time and don't get the feel for that big drop. Also don't discount the number of training pilots/check pilots that stop in here now and again and may have already checked into the "NEW" procedure and will be passing on the info to their victims in the next training session. But I think the original question was to ask how soon that should happen in the "newbee's" initial training. I for one think it should be talked about early on and maybe briefed on how to stay well clear of the phenomenon but the actual instruction in the aircraft should be done late in the training by well qualified rehearsed instructors/training pilots.

 

twitch

[VERTICAL REF]

The first flight manual I ever read was the 47G2 manual which stated that for any tailrotor failure, autorotation was the corrective procedure. We all know that this is not the case with the jammed pedals in the hover, in flight and loss of thrust possibilities.

 

Think this is the same for Ring demonstration and recovery. Laterial recovery from the hover should be done with the same height/recoverable airspeed safety buffer built in, and should be part of the complete lesson on vor ring training. Ring recovery was first demonstrated to me at the 40 hour mark just prior to the introduction to sling training. 2000' agl was the start of the demonstration there ice floe!

 

Will have to agree with Duke on the company training. All recurrency and ppc's are done from the left seat. This includes 150' hover engine decel's for the twin pac, shut down and restart in flight of half the twin pac, 100', 100kts engine failures...we do not do power recoveries. Detailed Vortex ring and LTE included. Your company trainging should be tailored to suit your operational needs and demands of your company!

 

As a follow up, LTE should be discussed along with vortex ring. When you are in a nose high, tail low, quatering down wind situation LTE can be confused with the initial stages of vortex ring. After all it is just vortex ring of the tail rotor!

 

Too much for a 4 hour student, most definately! And not enough for the first time you get the s#$t up your back on the end of a line!

 

"Production junkies" instructing...oh boy! :shock:

[Big Duke 6]

Few, Glad to see somebody in this country on the same page. :up: