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Stupid stupid question, please don't shoot the messenger boys. Besides my glider and private licence all my experience has been military.


Where is the line between light - medium - heavys? We obviously don't refer to machines in the same way and nowdays our smallest beast is the CH146 Griffon (Bell 412). Which believe it or not may soon be the machine we use to teach the basic helicopter course in Portage La Prairie, but that is another whole story.


Do you generally (without digging into specific personal info) speaking make more money if the machine weighs more or is the job you do what matters? Is it both? In broad terms, what are the salary ranges nowdays for commercial helo pilots?


Just trying to wrap my brain around it all. :huh:

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Vortex Ring, is that the same as Ring of Fire, you know Johnny Cash.


Military people will be accepted into the association.


The question you ask is conviluted, but as for the average salary and standard of living you are better off.


That is one area of concern which will be addressed in the association, amongst numerous other things.


The whole industry is crazy, if I want to get my Volks fixed the labour is $78.00 an hour, plus parts.


The average rate that has been published down in the states for an average licensed car mech is $100,000 per year, working straight shifts.


Go figure.


The rates charged by the companies for helicopters is to low and it reflects all the way down.


This rant could go on for a long time, but it's just to give you some indication.


At one time the drivers and mechs from the states were coming up here for work, not anymore, it's the reverse.


I hope I indicated why we need an association for all concerned, to make this not only a better place, but a fair'er one in our society.


We are proffesional's, lets get treated as such, and paid accordingly.


Rant to continue at a later posting.


Cheers Don

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Of course, the "Intermediate" class wasn't even mentioned, that mid-class between the 206 and the 204.


I've always thought that the light class went up to 3,500 lb AUW or so (206, R44, MD500, EC120, and all the other piston trainers ), the Intermediates up to 6,000 Lb (350, 206L series, 407, Koala?), the mediums up to 12,000 (204 to 412), and the heavys (61, 64, 214, 107, 234, KA32) beyond that.


Basic Training on a 412? What sense is there in that Vortex? Who thought of that, some government department obviously? Sounds like a complete watse of time and money. I'm thinking that you can run a 206 for about 1/3 or less of that cost.


The basic rate in most of the west is around $3,000 Month and $60 Hr on average If I'm not mistaken. (given 3,000 hrs, flying a light or intermediate)

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BlackMac, thanks man, glad to hear we are welcome to join. One of the things we could bring to the table is somewhat of a reverse idiology I guess. Over the past ten years for sure military pilot salaries have been increased substantially as incentive to curb early departures to the airlines. It did help somewhat, of course the most benefit has been reaped by us helo drivers. You are correct that our current wages are very decent indeed which I believe could be reasoning to support better wages for industry to follow suit of the military. Surely Canada is loosing pilots to US and overseas markets because of it. I've watched guys long line and work fires or powerlines and the thought that they may only be making $35K/year seems nuts :down:


Bladestrike/407 Driver, thanks for the info on sizes and relative wages. The whole thing still confuses me though. I do know several guys who have made the transition from GI Joe to commercial ops but the majority go to IFR jobs. I don't want an IFR job, maybe I'm nuts but I want that tired old Jet Ranger job :blink::P It seems whenever I describe my experience that operators look at it as totally insufficient for those light machines since the smallest thing I've driven was the 212! For the past ten years it's been BV107 or SK61. I just hope I can find someone who will give me a chance with a 206 or 500 with a straight forward job moving folks and equipment around up north, a few weeks in, a few days out and on and on.........aaaahhhhh just straight forward flying. Don't get me wrong, I love flying off the frigates with my 20,500 lb grey beast, but I don't want to do this forever.


407 Driver - who's idea would it be to use Griffons for Basic Helicopter courses, the same moronic gang who says our Sea Kings are the same as George W's Sea Kings so we should just be happy to be driven'em. (They are still grounded :wacko: ). The Griffons in Portage is not 100% official but we can see it coming. We have around 35 Griffons that are virtually parked because units have been reduced in size and we are so short of pilots....My peers and I are very much all wishing that common sense will prevail and the Jet Ranger will be retained along with a lead in machine like a Koala, Twin Star or maybe A109. But the good folks who count the beans (politicians - not us military guys) have those Griffons in their sights, they are already paid for and sitting there....yeah the same guys who cancelled our Sea King replacement :stupid:


Some operator who wants to pick up some nice 412s should put a bid in, they don't have many hours, current C of A maintained with all ADs and full FMS,GPS and autopilots etc... ;)

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Donnybrook.......you are correct, the contract is about to expire as it is. The new contract calls for the ability to teach students basic NVG, FMS, autopilot, sling and hoist as common skills for all helo grads. Since the smallest and simplest machine currently in our Air Force is the Griffon there is a limited need for solo and all the current schools would greatly benefit from students arriving with the additional skills of NVG, FMS, autopilot, slinging and hoisting.


The preferred solution as far as I and most of my peers are concerned would be to retain a light single for ab initio training with a course conversion to the larger machine. As I have stated I am not privy to all the exact details and nothing is publicy decided yet. Many machines have been considered for the course upgrade including the Twin Star, the Agusta 109 and the Agusta 119 but I know not what will happen for sure.


I am sure details will be posted here once they are confirmed and released to the public.

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One would think that using a 206 for at least 50-60 hrs would be the best route. Isn't the percentage of 412's available like 10-15% due to snags etc.

I see how low the Astar tail gets with one person in it when doing a clearing turn. A light student in a twinstar constantly doing 360 turns in various wind speeds is surely an accident awaiting them. I have only few a couple of smooth Astar drivers,and being close to the ground is not where Astars like to be...An A109? who in Canada has touched one???The 2X6 suits the initial phase well from my experience military/civilian ..

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When will this change come about? I know the contract for 3CFFTS is due, so is this soon to be? Will they actually let someone go solo in a Griffy????????

Why would we need to solo anyone in the Grif? We don't have a single helicopter that is flown single pilot in DND. We need to breed crew members and at the junior level, first officers, not aircraft captains. That will come later.

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