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Hi MINI, it's been quite a day for misinterpretations. Luckily Cyclic Monkey got this one right.

My earlier comment did refer to the reasons listed by 407Driver, and repeated by Cyclic Monkey, (and I also fully agree with).

My point to 407D was that even though there are very good reasons to use a long-line in the mountains there is no need to belittle the people that haven't learnt that skill yet.


Cyclic Monkey also makes a good point in defence of pilots who haven't YET learnt to long-line, fly IFR, or heli-ski. I don't think it was a shot at you personally. I think it is actually a pat-on-the-back for the up-and-comers of our industry.

No-one should be attempting maneuvres they aren't ready for (i.e. untrained long-lining) just to avoid being called a "clown".

None of us are born knowing this stuff, and as such, we are not "clowns" until we do learn it.

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This has turned into quite the debate. I agree whole heartedly with firehawk. A proffesional pilot should be able to adapt to the task at hand. Safety has priority and if you cant do the job dont pretend you can. You have to remember though that alot of guys take fires as a good oppertunity to learn these skills. Not everyone has 20,000 hours and have been long linning since birth. I would rather see an enthusiatic pilot trying to better himself then some cowboy scewing up the circuit trying to lap everyone. its all apart of good airmanship.

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Hi MINI, sincere apologies.

My post must have been ambiguous, and you unfortunately mis-read it. My last paragraph was NOT aimed at you. The only thing I had for you was the re-posting of the list of reasons previously mentioned. Again, sorry about that.


As OverTalk noticed, my post was a general comment to pilots who can't YET long-line, fly IFR, or Heli-ski. I just wanted them to know not to rush into these tasks before they are ready.


For the sake of clarity I will try editing that paragraph a little.........

"If you are a pilot that can't YET long-line well enough to fill a bladder with a 150' line, or fly in ice and fog to a rig on the Grand Banks, or drop twelve skiers at a little flag half-buried in the world's lightest powder-snow......you AREN'T a clown. You are simply another pilot working your way up.

Ensure you do everything, (at all stages of your career), safely and professionally. Your passengers, family, and boss deserve nothing less.........and want you to attempt nothing more."


Did I make sense this time??

It's been quite a day.......my computer was over-heating when some of those posts popped up!!

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Hey Guy's, something to think about. Everybody is talking longlining on fires. Concept, approach your pickup point, drop 100' line with bucket attached into water, fill, climbout and proceed to drop off point, turn around.


Scenario: 100' line, pick up geo bird and commence terrain flying at tree top level and maintain tree top level for the next 20 miles or there abouts. You are relying on a radar altimeter that gives you height above ground directlty below the aircraft.


This is a survey that has to be flown at a given height above ground irrespective of the tree height.


The cost of the bird you are towing is any were from $1 to $1,000,000 +


There is no insurance on the Bird. (not available)


Would you consider this type of flying.????


What would you compare it to????


Makes you think,eh????


Cheers, HEPAC

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Is anyone in Canada using belly-fixed tanks? If not, why? Why are they more popular in the US than here in Canada? I think when Frontier was around they did, but haven't heard about anyone else lately.


Last year VIH Logging trialed a Simplex tank on one of their Kamovs, but never heard anyting more of it. Anyone know?


As for the long-lining versus short-line debate, there was a picture in the latest issue of Vertical of a Vertol dipping a BB on a 225 foot line in a pocket in a stream coming off a mountain. The picture says it all, it would not have been possible if it was something with a short-line.

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I can' comment on all your questions but after spending some time working in Southern California i can tell you the main reason they like belly tanks is they can fill them in very small water sources. they can also be filled from a hydrant. The main thing I can see though is that you can't drop one. I worked a fire in Chino Hills a few years back with a very experianced Canadian pilot who was working with a bucket. He commented that he was never so worried about a bucket coming off the hook as he was on that fire becuase of all the "lookie loos".

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The belly tanks do have there place also, I think the reason in Canada we don't see many is first, It will lower our useful load lugging it around when you dont need it, I dont know the exact weight of one but, I heard they are up around 500lbs. (someone out there might know the exact weight for a 212 belly tank).

At least with a bucket you can kick it out in the field while you move crews and gear, Also with the amount of confined areas (unprepared landing sites) that we do up here the stumps, rocks and other debris in them I dont know how long it would be until you ram something up into it.

I would be curious to know about the problems that Tasman and others running the

Rap program in B.C. If they have these problems.

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it's apples and oranges really...............


yes, in the rocks the longline is the best choice whereas out in the flats..........


as to the "rap" machines. our contract read NO controls in the left side. funny how all of a sudden that changed and suddenly that was ok...........


as to accuracy? although nobody is perfect i heard far more "bulls-eyes" than "you missed". come to think of it...... i don't think i heard the "you missed" part this summer......... :P:D

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