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i get tired of the history lessons....simply becaused we have progressed way past that...it's over it's done.....no more......history books are closed. Lets look to the future based on todays needs, not what happened back in the dark ages when dinosaurs ruled the earth.

 

I am not well versed on SMS yet, but I see many valuable points being made.....however, to let the record show....I've made my determination a long time ago. The "spokesman" for a certain organization has got to go

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i get tired of the history lessons....simply becaused we have progressed way past that...it's over it's done.....no more......history books are closed. Lets look to the future based on todays needs, not what happened back in the dark ages when dinosaurs ruled the earth.

 

Those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it. :mellow:

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Skullie; For your added info and anybody else that has a problem with Safety Management System.

 

TinLizzie: HAC's proposal was for Industry Self Management (ISM) after 2010, get worried then.

 

Lunchbox: SMS does not effect licensing in any way.

[b]For your added info: When the article Any Wilson is referring to and prior to the one CBAA was also disagreeing with, I wrote our esteemed paper and told them they were using "scare tactics" and being politically motivated by the NDP (ex-Flight Attendant, now an MP for the NDP) from the Toronto based Flight Attenfants Union, the editor for the Citizen said they were only reporting the FACTS. I said maybe the writer (Ron Butler) should check his source for the FACTS, before publishing. They never retracted the statement as such, but I guess one of our MAJOR AIRLINES union is supporting Helicopter Engineers and Pilots Association, Canada point of view. [/b]

 

What else can I say, Don

 

 

 

Virtually everyone who's looked at this from a safety point of view has recognized the need for a confidential reporting system," says Andy Wilson, president of the Air Canada Pilots Association.

 

He was responding to criticism of Bill C-7 by the Canadian Newspaper Association and the Canadian Union of Public Employees, which represents flight attendants.

 

 

 

Keep internal airline safety reports secret: pilots' union

Confidentiality key to addressing problems, association president says

Don Butler, The Ottawa Citizen

Published: Monday, February 04, 2008

Internal safety reports by airline employees need to be kept secret to promote a culture of safety within the aviation industry, says the union that represents Air Canada's 3,300 pilots."Virtually everyone who's looked at this from a safety point of view has recognized the need for a confidential reporting system," says Andy Wilson, president of the Air Canada Pilots Association.

 

He was responding to criticism of Bill C-7 by the Canadian Newspaper Association and the Canadian Union of Public Employees, which represents flight attendants.

 

The bill, poised to receive third reading in Parliament, amends the Aeronautics Act. Among other things, it authorizes Safety Management Systems (SMS) in the aviation industry, a process that includes non-punitive confidential reporting of safety issues by airline employees.

 

CUPE and the newspaper association strenuously object to clauses that exempt those safety reports from Access to Information, warning that a "curtain of secrecy" is poised to descend over aviation safety problems.

 

But the pilots union, the airline industry and Transport Canada all deny that implementing SMS means greater secrecy, saying everything that is now publicly available will remain available.

 

Mr. Wilson says the reports covered by the proposed confidentiality clauses contain internal company information that often wasn't even generated in the past and has never been public in any case.

 

Lucie Vignola, a special communications adviser at Transport Canada, says the confidential information is "proprietary information in terms of competitive advantage. So that's not for us to give out."

 

Without confidentiality, airline employees would be far less likely to report safety problems, Mr. Wilson says, because they wouldn't want to see their own mistakes "on the bulletin board."

 

SMS encourages voluntary reporting by promising confidentiality and avoiding a punitive response.

 

The experience of Air Transat, the first Canadian carrier to adopt SMS, proves the value of that approach, Mr. Wilson says.

 

"We know that the reporting increased by a factor of several hundred per cent. There's no reason to think that the number of incidents increased at all -- it's the reporting that increased."

 

The additional reporting improves safety by allowing airlines to look for systemic problems they can address, Ms. Vignola says. "If things are reported, then we can stop an accident before it happens."

 

Under SMS, which large carriers must fully implement by June, airlines are required to keep a record of safety reports and what they have done to address them, says Fred Gaspar, of the Air Transport Association of Canada, an industry group. Transport Canada is able to audit and review those files, he says.

 

Stephen Guetta, chairman of the pilots union's accidents investigation committee, likens the confidential reporting system to "the ultimate employee message box."

 

Compared to the United States, Canada is "much further along" when it comes to implementing SMS, which has been mandated for adoption by the International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), Mr. Guetta says.

 

Mr. Wilson says airline pilots support Bill C-7, even though they are already "the most monitored group of people in the world. We're wired. It's pretty intrusive, and yet we welcome more monitoring because we have the most direct interest possible in safety."

 

Mr. Guetta said Air Canada pilots have agreed to participate in a "line-oriented safety audit" (LOSA) in April and May.

 

About two dozen Air Canada pilots will write detailed reports on the actions of pilots on 310 flights over a six-week period to determine how well the airline's standard operating procedures are working.

 

It's a little intimidating," Mr. Guetta concedes. "But the point is our line pilots will accept that if it's conducted by one of their peers."

 

While reports generated by the SMS process will be confidential, information about safety incidents and violations will continue to be available on Transport Canada's website, Ms. Vignola says.

 

Since last year, reports on safety-related incidents have been posted online in the department's Civil Aviation Daily Occurrence Report. And summaries of punitive action against companies that break safely rules are posted on Transport Canada's "corporate offenders" website.

 

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008

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QUOTE:

 

 

Virtually everyone who's looked at this from a safety point of view has recognized the need for a confidential reporting system," says Andy Wilson, president of the Air Canada Pilots Association.

 

Internal safety reports by airline employees need to be kept secret to promote a culture of safety within the aviation industry, says the union that represents Air Canada's 3,300 pilots.[/b]"Virtually everyone who's looked at this from a safety point of view has recognized the need for a confidential reporting system," says Andy Wilson, president of the Air Canada Pilots Association.

 

poised to receive third reading in Parliament, amends the Aeronautics Act. Among other things, it authorizes Safety Management Systems (SMS) in the aviation industry, a process that includes non-punitive confidential reporting of safety issues by airline employees.

 

CUPE and the newspaper association strenuously object to clauses that exempt those safety reports from Access to Information, warning that a "curtain of secrecy" is poised to descend over aviation safety problems.

 

But the pilots union, the airline industry and Transport Canada all deny that implementing SMS means greater secrecy, saying everything that is now publicly available will remain available.

 

Mr. Wilson says the reports covered by the proposed confidentiality clauses contain internal company information that often wasn't even generated in the past and has never been public in any case.

 

Lucie Vignola, a special communications adviser at Transport Canada, says the confidential information is "proprietary information in terms of competitive advantage. So that's not for us to give out."

 

Without confidentiality, airline employees would be far less likely to report safety problems, Mr. Wilson says, because they wouldn't want to see their own mistakes "on the bulletin board."

 

SMS encourages voluntary reporting by promising confidentiality and avoiding a punitive response.

 

 

Stephen Guetta, chairman of the pilots union's accidents investigation committee, likens the confidential reporting system to "the ultimate employee message box."

 

END QUOTE:

 

 

So Don, this may be infact a great thing in a big company where someone reports a problem and they may be able to disguise who it was that reported it and thus keep confidentiallity of worker reporting it which seems to be what many people are selling as the saving grace of safety(more reporting of problem areas to be proactive).

 

But would like to see how many lawyers are rubbing their hands together for wrongful dismissal lawsuits. Cause under sms you can't fire someone who admits to making mistake,,,,oh joy how many lawyers are going to upgrading. Maybe the manufactures will make more sales...do I sound cynical, hope so. The flying public needs to be protected for sure and big airlines have the biggest exposure, one law for all is NOT the right way for sms(don't bother with the sms for small operator lecture please). Was taking a leak in a very large operator's washroom not so long ago and infront of me is the latest incident or tip of the week. Not really sure if most of these companies need alot of help in reporting incidents thus the huge expenditure of sms in alot helicopter companies may miss the boat. But hey, maybe in the east is different, don't know.

 

Perhaps HOW will it be any friggin different in a small company where everyone allready knows who made the mistake at the beginning. Come on, sms and the small operator, is very strange to implement and really do not understand its betterment.

 

I have had many calls to Transport Canada and they never talked down to me and tried to help and make me understand any questions or concerns I have. Even had an inspector from another region call me and e-mail me guidance material. They have been proactive and tried to ensure we are doing things right from our beginning.

 

Guess I need someone to sell me on the benefits of sms a bit better without the negativity and "its coming and be ready" attitude.

 

jmho

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