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Logging >>> IFR TIME

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I fail to see the link - this clause talks about filing a flight plan vs. an itinerary. What about approach facilities? Alternates? This contract is bid, awarded, and is supposed to be operated under night VFR.


I have flown that job, and I''ve flown it in December so I know exactly how much VFR there is there. However, I never logged any IFR time, only night VFR. We had no alternates in Baffin or further west. In Labrador we would sometimes file in the S61 coming back to YYR from the coast, because we had a no-alternate approval there. We''d punch into it in uncontrolled airspace and file when we could raise someone on the box.


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I think we have come around to agreeing with your first post CTD.


As opposed to actual IFR with alternates and approaches, I think the topic is night VFR in VFR weather conditions with VFR on both ends but having inadequate celestial or terestial illumination, requireing your ADI to keep the right side up. I've found most people consider themselves VFR because if you turn on your landing light, you have all the reference you need, but consider logging the enroute portion as IFR as you are maintaining your straight and level flight with your instruments.


The CARs are quite clear though, you do need to be filed IFR (plan/itinerary, with IFR reserve fuel but hopefully you have the OC exemption for no alternate IFR) if you don't have the required reference. I don't know about the job you're referring too, but I know the ambulance guys often preferred the night VFR MOCA's in the winter months as you can fly much lower and still stay out of cloud. When I queried certain TC guys, they didn't seem overly concerned, but by the CARs, I'd have to agree with you that if you aren't IFR, you shouldn't be logging it as such because you shouldn't be using (or require) your ADI. As I mentioned, our SOP's now require us to treat such flights as IFR.


If the aircraft and crews aren't IFR certified, they certainly shouldn't be flogging around without visual reference in the first place.


Needles, whats the big deal, if you're in uncontrolled airspace, with just filing an IFR flight plan or itinerary as opposed to VFR? Do you not have the "No Alternate" OC exemption?

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Firstly, turning on your landing light to see the ground as your only means of reference does not fall under adequate celestial or terrestrial illumination.


The slinging is OK, even if you file IFR; (see CAR below)


As for logging it, if its filed as an IFR flight, be it in IMC or VMC, log it as IFR I say. More to it that gyro watching.


File IFR, fly at your minimums. If you are flying to communities they should provide the terrestrial illumination you require to drop below your MOCA, continuing your descent VFR. (I haven''t done this job so I am guessing)


TC may be wishy washy about this, they don''t seem to like getting involved and are happy to give operators enough rope to hang themselves, but, heaven forbid, if something should happen up there, the doo-doo with hit the rotating air mover and you will be boiled in oil by the investigators. I have seen it happen.(not actual doo-doo)

paraphrasing somebody elses previous post:

''ask yourself if it would stand up in court''


CAR''s 722.18

(7) Helicopter external load under IFR is subject to the following standards:


(a) the helicopter is certified as a Transport Category A Rotorcraft;


(B) the helicopter and external load combination is airworthiness approved for IFR;


© only flight crew members and persons essential during flight are carried;


(d) no persons are carried externally;


(e) flights are coordinated with the appropriate ATC unit and advised that the helicopter will be carrying an external load; and


(f) the air operator''s Company Operations Manual content includes operational restrictions and procedures.

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There are a couple simple truths here, that are really not open to interpretation.


1. To fly night VFR, or any VFR, you must navigate and control the aircraft with reference to objects on the ground.

2. If there are no objects on the ground with which to navigate, or otherwise keep the aircraft upright, and you rely solely on instruments to eprform the flight, then you are no longer VFR, and must comply with IFR. This includes alternates, fuel reserves, crew and a/c qualifications, flight plans/itineraries etc. 

3. IFR and IMC are two different things. We no longer log IMC time, like back in the Class 1 and 2 days, but we do log IFR time. And that can be done when filed, IMC or VMC.


If your flight requires the sole use of navigation and flight instruments to complete, then you cannot legally do it VFR.

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