Medium Tail Rotor Drive Failure

[CTD]

Well I must add my 2 bits.

 

We have flown the sim in Gagetown for 3 years now for our recurrent training. Yes there are differences from the 212 but, would it not be much more usefull to see what certain emergency's look and feel like? I agree with Jerry that the sim is a great tool for us as pilots. If you can pull 810 degrees OEI in the 212, (straight 3's) Then that is what we limit ourselves to in the sim. Overall though, the point is very simple in my mind. It's better to experience actual engine fires, followed by engine out, followed possibly by a T/R drive shaft failure to the ground. Not to mention High side gov failures, 90 deg gearboxes coming off in flight, pencil shaft failures. Anyone who ever gets one of those who hasn't seen it in the sim is in for a handfull, (Not to say we wouldn't be as well).

Doing these exercises on A/C involves talking about but not actually seeing it, seeing the turbine temp at 950 because you can't figure out WTF is happening( pencil shaft failure).

I appreciate the differences technically between the two types. I don't feel it is negative training at all, it just prepares us a little bit better for the real thing.

I'm not dissing sim training as a concept, in fact I think it's the best thing to hit the helicopter world since turbine engines and rum in plastic bottles. What I am saying is that I believe the pilot is better served by experiencing this training in an environment where he or she is not constantly having to think about what's different between what I'm doing here and what I'd have to do back home. This option exists, and it's called a 212 sim - but it's ever-so-slightly more expensive.

 

Again, one of the reasons I feel that way is because I have flown all three types, and have made mistakes after jumping in a 146 after a period of flying 412EPs.

[Guest Jerry]

CTD,

 

I agree with your observations regarding the differences between the Griffon sim and all of the various incarnations of the VFR & IFR 212's. In fact, we debated these issues at length during the original certfication of TC 465 in the late '90's.

 

And indeed, it seems that feelings both pro and con are as strongly held now as they were then.

 

There may be other issues of which you are not aware, but Alec and I believed in what we we trying to do at the time. We also believed we could satisfactorily mitigate the differences with a well thought out training program.

 

In the final analysis, I agree that in a perfect world we would have sims that exactly replicate each type, but unfortuantely, we don't - in R/W or the F/W.

[CTD]

CTD,

 

I agree with your observations regarding the differences between the Griffon sim and all of the various incarnations of the VFR & IFR 212's. In fact, we debated these issues at length during the original certfication of TC 465 in the late '90's.

 

And indeed, it seems that feelings both pro and con are as strongly held now as they were then.

 

There may be other issues of which you are not aware, but Alec and I believed in what we we trying to do at the time. We also believed we could satisfactorily mitigate the differences with a well thought out training program.

 

In the final analysis, I agree that in a perfect world we would have sims that exactly replicate each type, but unfortuantely, we don't - in R/W or the F/W.

Agreed, and please appreciate that I'm advocating one position for the sake of argument. I don't doubt your sincerity one bit. The perfect world is as elusive as ever, and in a previous post, I called the Flight Safety sim 'adequate'. It's far from perfect.

 

I believe that you and I have had this discussion in person at HAC in YVR with a beer in our hands.

[hookdangler]

rainman...say high to dave j for me and tell him the next time he is in freddy to give me a call...been down here in saint john for 8 years...haven't seen bo judley in a long time...since old midwest days :punk: otooley...think penner or hosebag was there when it happened...I was in red lake...happy trails...pottsy

 

Hey pottsy how the h#ll are ya man? I have been just on here and reading about this tail rotor thing. I'll definitely give ya a call when I get back out there.

Mugsy was the engineer with me on that fateful day west of Pickle. Lucky for me it was a 204 with that long tailboom that saved my a$$ and learning what Bill Abbott was teaching on how to deal with tail rotor emergencies way back then. Anyways I still have that chain in my memorabilia box.

Talk to ya sometime

dave

 

As to the sim stuff, I think any realistic or close to realistic training on procedures definitely help with your emergency analysis and reactions. Any emergencies I have dealt with in my career have been on the "fly" (no pun intended) reactions. Most reactions to the emergency were to avoid hurting ground personal working in the danger zone. The sim allows one the chance to figure it out with no risk to persons or aircraft. In training pilots on the sim I have been able to watch how guys work through the emergency from recognition to figuring out what to do and then executing the procedures. Each year there is progress in the pilot's skills in dealing with emergencies. You can see their confidence and it is great to see when they use their knowledge to make good decisions in the field regarding risk management. They and myself included approach the job knowing that if something happens we have the knowledge and the skills to deal with the emergency and give ourselves the greatest chance of survival. Even the recognition of a no win emergency, the job then is to then get on the ground and survive or as I have been told to "crash as elegantly as possible" (Right Jerry?)