Logging Co-jo Time

[rainman]

Just wondering what the accepted thing is for a person who gets their coveted first gig as a pilot working as a co-pilot on a logging machine( Transwest or Black Tusk).

 

Can they log those hours or not? I understand that this kind of experience isn't the greatest but at least one would get some ferry time and air time.

 

R

[cyclic monkey]

Log the hours for what you actually did........i.e sitting there counting loads, or actually hands-on-the-stick ferry time.

Your honesty will serve you a lot better at this stage in your career than trying to BS a chief pilot with a story about you pulling timber on a 150' longline !!

[rainman]

That's kinda what I thought, as for logging time as meat in the seat I guess you would classify that as co-pilot time in a logbook?? And when you are ferrying or flying crews that would be PIC?

 

The reason I ask is my buddy who is looking for his first flying job was told that he couldn't log the time as co jo, period, end of conversation. I just wasn't sure of the actual rules of logging time.

 

Couldn't agree with you more C.M about being honest about your times and abilities as I've heard of quite a few people padding their logbook and overstating their abilities. It's a good way to get in a little over your head. Then you look like a crappy pilot when you can't get a job done properly or with a customer complaint of some sort.

[cyclic monkey]

Rainman, be careful of the difference between the definitions of PF (pilot flying), PNF (pilot not flying), and PIC (pilot in command).

 

A low time pilot in a 214 may be the PF (well done buddy), but the grey-haired crusty old veteran (PNF) that has to ride everywhere with him may not agree that the hungry new pup is the PIC.

 

Log ALL the time in the air, just be honest about what you were doing, and what responsibilities you or other crew members had on that flight.

This may mean changing the headings in your logbook columns, but that's life.

Once you get a bunch of honest PIC time, you can just add it all together, as the subtle differences shouldn't matter anymore..............(and by 1000 hours or so you will know it all by then anyway so it doesn't matter, eh??).

 

P.S. There are Air Regs and Standards that count co-jo flight time at only 50%, when moving up to a HIGHER level of licence, but I don't think that applies when when just working as a Commercial pilot.

[tDawe]

I'm not sure if counting logs compares, but the cover artical of the latest ASL has a paragraph in it about how the pilot logged some 20.3 hours of dual, where as the company paperwork only showed him doing 6.5 hours of training and the rest coming from being right seat on revenue flights.

 

Cyclic Monkey has a good point about breaking up the log book into PNF vs. PF vs. Dual, although that means writting even smaller.

 

And I'm not complettly sure how the heli-logging industry works but maybe you can look at it from a CARS / O.C. angle, like if it says logging is a two crew job in the O.C. , then he's in good shape. Just a thought.

 

Thats my one cent (I'm not good enough to have two yet...)

 

tDawe

[HeloTeacher]

As long as the RFM or Company Ops Manual require 2 pilots, then co-pilot time may be logged, regardless of other factors.

 

If you are the pilot flying but not PIC it makes no difference.

 

Just try to learn as much as you while you are there.

[rainman]

Thanks for the responses, I was thinking you could log the time some way. So It is a good way to get the foot in the door, better than the eternal road trip.

[downwash]

Rainmain, it MAY be a way to get 'a foot in the door' but I hardly think it's a good one. While it certainly provides some exposure to real, and tough, helicopter ops, it doesn't hold much water with most operators when evaluating a pilot's experience. That said, it MAY be better than sitting on your butt by the fire or in the pub, or by the fire in the pub, but I'd truly hate to see you or anyone else miss out on a real job opportunity while gathering 'meat pilot' time.

 

Let's see what that stirs up. :shock:

[VERTICAL REF]

Rainman, your resume and your logbook tell everyone how good you should be not how good you actually are! Tis better to fly like a 1000 hour pilot with 250 hours than fly like a 1000 hour driver with 7000 in his book!

 

Bic pens are cheap, "oh shitts" are a lot more valuable...

 

Would be wise to heed Downwash's words of experience!

All the best!

[rainman]

I would think that someone who trained 1.5 years ago and has got nowhere yet made some good contacts along the way should hound those contacts. But! if given the chance maybe it would be a good idea to do the co jo thing in the interim just to get in the industry.

 

I know that most other options lead to an actual flying job sooner once you get the chance to wash heli's and scrub floors. I was lucky and got paid something right from the get go, unlike 412 d's story( which is pretty **** impressive). I think there are lot's of pups out there who would do the same thing but maybe not as many as before, but that's another thread.