Flight/duty Time Limitations

[chicken_lifter]

Alright people - Somebody out there must have a good idea how these rules work..

 

I'm mainly concerned with the following section:

 

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The standard for providing a number of rest periods other than as required by subsection 700.19(1) of the Canadian Aviation Regulations is:

 

(1) Where the flight is conducted under Subpart 2 or 3 of Part VII of the Canadian Aviation Regulations, or with a deHavilland DHC-6 aircraft not conducting a scheduled passenger service or with a helicopter not conducting a scheduled passenger service, or heli-logging, the 24 consecutive hours 3 times within each 30 consecutive days may be replaced by:

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

 

(a) following at least 5 consecutive periods of 24 consecutive hours free from duty, a flight crew member may be assigned duty for up to 42 consecutive days; and

(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

 

( the flight crew member shall receive at least 5 consecutive periods of 24 consecutive hours free from duty following any assignment that exceeds 27 consecutive days.

(amended 1999/09/01; previous version)

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Ok, so here's a scenario:

 

I'm sent out on a job and then fly 26 days in a row - At this point can I take the next 3 days off and have it satisfy the 3 in 30 rule? Or would I need 5 days off because the 'assignment' exceeded 27 days?

 

Not sure if this is a stupid question. Feel free to tell me if it is!

 

I've got another couple questions, too...

 

Is it legal to fly an entire duty day? It seems obvious that there has to be time to prepare the machine in the morning and put it to bed at night, but what's the minimum time required for that if any? What if (just for the sake of argument) my engineer did all the flight planning, DI, etc for me before I even woke up; so I basically just walk to the machine and start it up - Then at the end of the day I step out of the aircraft just as my duty day rolls from 13:59 over to 14:00 and my engineer puts the machine to bed. Am I legal?

 

and finally...

 

The 365 day total, the 180 day total and the 7 day total can never get reset....(correct me if I'm wrong)

In tracking these totals, am I correct in thinking of it as a window that moves forward everyday, where I add the current days flight time and subtract the flight time from 'the limit + 1' days in the past? For example... The 365 day total, every new day the flight time for the 366th day in the past gets subtracted from the total and whatever flight time accumulated during the current day gets added....

 

Please tell me if I'm out to lunch!

 

Cheers

 

[Hiller Highwater]

Ok, so here's a scenario:

 

1. I'm sent out on a job and then fly 26 days in a row - At this point can I take the next 3 days off and have it satisfy the 3 in 30 rule? Or would I need 5 days off because the 'assignment' exceeded 27 days?

 

Not sure if this is a stupid question. Feel free to tell me if it is!

 

I've got another couple questions, too...

 

2. Is it legal to fly an entire duty day? It seems obvious that there has to be time to prepare the machine in the morning and put it to bed at night, but what's the minimum time required for that if any? What if (just for the sake of argument) my engineer did all the flight planning, DI, etc for me before I even woke up; so I basically just walk to the machine and start it up - Then at the end of the day I step out of the aircraft just as my duty day rolls from 13:59 over to 14:00 and my engineer puts the machine to bed. Am I legal?

 

and finally...

 

3. The 365 day total, the 180 day total and the 7 day total can never get reset....(correct me if I'm wrong)

In tracking these totals, am I correct in thinking of it as a window that moves forward everyday, where I add the current days flight time and subtract the flight time from 'the limit + 1' days in the past? For example... The 365 day total, every new day the flight time for the 366th day in the past gets subtracted from the total and whatever flight time accumulated during the current day gets added....

 

Please tell me if I'm out to lunch!

 

Cheers

 

I've been reading this forum for a long time and have finally decided to join the crowd, so a nice neutral topic for my first foray is most welcome!

 

Questions in order:

 

1. You can work 27 straight and then take 3 days off to satisfy the "3 in 30" rule. You could then go another 27 straight and take another 3 off. But you need to have 13 off in 90 so you could only do it twice before needing additional time off. If you had 5 days off before your shift you can go 42 straight and then take another 5 off, which is pretty common in the Summer in Canada. Elsewhere in the world they think we're crazy as other countries' CAA's have far more stringent restrictions.

 

2. This one is a little open to interpretation as some think you need 30 minutes before and after for paperwork etc. However, if everything else was done for you and there were no "additional duties" you needed to perform, I don't think TC would have a case that you did anything wrong. So if you could carry 14 hrs worth of fuel you should be able to fly it. Or even 15 for that matter. Since this would never happen it's a bit of an argument for the sake of arguing.

 

3. The 7 day total can be reset by 5 days off, there is no 180 day total that I'm aware of though. The 365 dayer can't be exceeded in any event - and it would be pretty hard to anyway.

 

Hope this helps,

 

HH

 

[FREDDIE]

The best place to find this info is in your operations manual.Because it depends on what ops specs your operation is operating under.Under day to day operations you are reqired to take 3 days off in any given 30 day period.If you take 5 days off then you can work up to 42 days straight then take 5 days off.In order to do this you must have the 5 days off prior and 5 days after.I don't think you can have your Engineer do your planning and di and post flight because some of these dutie are required to be completed by the PIC.The max that you can be on duty is 14 hrs. You must factor pre trip and post trip into that time period.

 

As I stated your operations manual lays it out check your ops specs and keep asking questions because I have heard several different interperatations of the same document.

[dimit]

I had a regular, weekend job with long days. Fueled up and did my DI Friday night, just checked wx and fluids Saturday morning. Did the flight tkt during the day. Did A/C log book only at the end of the day. Sunday morning did DI and wx, otherwise day was the same. All other paperwork waited 'til Monday.

 

We were paid run time on that job, so I'd bill 13.5 hrs, log airtime in A/C and personal logs, and 14 hrs on the flight duty record. Needless to say we hot fueled, ate lunch at the controls, and p!ssed on the skids!

[chicken_lifter]

Here's an exerpt from our Ops Manual:

 

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(1) The company shall not assign and no pilot shall accept an assignment that

will exceed, in all flying, any of the following flight time limitations:

 

(a) 120 hours in any period of 30 consecutive days;

( 300 hours in any period of 90 consecutive days;

© 1,200 hours in any period of 12 consecutive months; and

(d) 60 hours in any period of 7 consecutive days.

 

 

(2) Notwithstanding (1) above, company flight crew members not conducting a

scheduled passenger service or heli-logging, may for any 6 non-overlapping

periods of 30 consecutive days within a 365 consecutive day period,

replace the 30 and 90 consecutive day flight times outlined in (1) (a) and (

above by the following:

 

(a) 150 hours in any 30 consecutive days;

( 210 hours in any 42 consecutive days;

© 450 hours in any 90 consecutive days;

(d) the accumulated 30 and 90 consecutive day flight times may be reset to

zero when the flight crew member is provided with at least 5 consecutive

days free from all duty but in no case shall exceed more than 900 hours

in the 180 consecutive days and 1,200 hours in any 365 consecutive

days in all flying.

 

 

(3) For logging operations, the flight time limits outlined above may be replaced

by:

 

(a) 120 hours in any 30 consecutive days for single-pilot helicopters.

( 150 hours in any 30 consecutive days for helicopters operated by two

pilots; and

(a) 1,200 hours in any 365 consecutive days;

(4) When a flight crew member is scheduled for a flight which would require him

to exceed the maximum flight time described above (appropriate to the

operation being conducted), the flight crew member shall not accept the

assignment and shall notify the Operations Manager or Chief Pilot

immediately.

(5) Flight crew members shall inform the Operations Manager or Chief Pilot by

the fastest means available when he/she is within 30 hours of the maximum

allowable flight time for the type of operation being conducted.

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The bold section above is where I determined the 180 day limit, I believe it's also in the CARs (but maybe not applicable to all companies?).

 

The 7 day limit is also bolded.. As far as I can tell, that limit can never be reset??

 

Another Exerpt:

 

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(4) For company flight crew members not conducting a scheduled passenger

service, or logging operations, the 24 consecutive hours 3 times within each

30 consecutive days (1(a) above) may be replaced by:

(a) a flight duty assignment for up to 42 consecutive days provided the flight

crew member has received at least 5 consecutive periods of 24 hours

free from all duty, prior to such assignment; and

( following any duty assignment that exceeds 27 consecutive days the

flight crew member shall receive at least five (5) consecutive periods of

24 consecutive hours free from all duty.

-------------

 

Hiller, you mentioned that you can work 27 days and get 3 days off and then go back for another 27...

 

My initial interpretation was that after working between 27 and 42 consecutive days, I'll need to take 5 days off to be legal to work again. If I read it more carefully, the 'exceeds 27 consecutive days' makes me think that between 28 and 42 days requires the 5 days off.

 

I think I've cleared that one up... the exceeds part is the kicker.

 

 

[chicken_lifter]

oh jeez.. my brain is hurting with this one...

 

'6 non-overlapping periods of 30 consecutive days'

 

how can a period of 30 consecutive days overlap? What the heck does that statement mean?

[Skids Up]

email Eric and get his program. It will do the math for you..

 

castleb@nbnet.nb.ca

 

 

[Hiller Highwater]

It's actually pretty simple. 6 non-overlapping periods mean that even if you "reset" with 5 days off, you still need to consider a 30 day factor. So, if you had 5 days off, went to work and flew 8 hrs per day you would time-ex during the afternoon of your 19th day. Take 5 days off and come back to work on day 25 of that 30 day cycle and you can't reset... you need to take the 11 days off to get you out of the "overlapping" 30 day period. So you can do 150 hrs per 30 day period, up to 6 times, which gives you your 900 hr limit.

 

Clear as mud?

 

Use Flight Duty Xls.

 

HH

[chicken_lifter]

It's actually pretty simple. 6 non-overlapping periods mean that even if you "reset" with 5 days off, you still need to consider a 30 day factor. So, if you had 5 days off, went to work and flew 8 hrs per day you would time-ex during the afternoon of your 19th day. Take 5 days off and come back to work on day 25 of that 30 day cycle and you can't reset... you need to take the 11 days off to get you out of the "overlapping" 30 day period. So you can do 150 hrs per 30 day period, up to 6 times, which gives you your 900 hr limit.

 

Clear as mud?

 

Use Flight Duty Xls.

 

HH

 

 

Clear as mud, yeah!! Thanks for the info - Maybe I'm dumb, but im still having a lot of trouble understanding the 30 overlapping periods thing.

 

Also, I've heard lots of good things about Flight Duty XLS, but I am really interested in getting a solid understanding of the system before I let something else take care of the calculations for me. I believe I actually have a copy of that program somewhere.

 

Thanks again for the help

[riggerS]

well heres what you do!

 

you get a job flying a large helicopter of canadian registry,preferably black,in australia.

 

then you can fly or be on duty, continuously for as long as you like without any regard for the cars,because you forgot that book way back in a snow bank somewhere.

 

then when you come back to canada,you pray transport canada are so retarded,they believe that on days you didnt enter anything in the logbook,it was actually a day off!

 

mostly because that part of the rules that say"when deployed,if you report to an aircraft,are on less than 1 hr callout,or are restricted to staying at a certain location,it is considered on duty"must just be a suggestion!

 

im sure you can tell a story of how some jackass con,who has never heard of our bible called "the cars" said it would be ok and get away with it,until something fails,someone is injured,and you forfeit your lifes,wifes,and future earnings to some poor aussies family.(or get the cuffs slapped on you when you land back home,and get a 2 year flight suspension,and a 1500 dollar/day over fine,or,god forbid,cause a loss of life due to your own negligence)

 

always remember that is you(the pilot in command) who is responsible for your own times,and its good to see some people actually are interested in learning some of the rules,not bend them to suit there financial needs.

 

safety is an attitude,not an action!

 

im tc and im here to help!

 

gday!