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reverend charlie whiskey... "politically correct" or not, HEPAC will ALWAYS have room for a member who calls a spade "a foggin' shovel"... that's how work gets done!


it is the likes of the mcdougalls and ellsworths that have made this industry the considerable success it is today!


send us your fifty bones... and don't forget to include your ideas and what role you may be in a position to assume... the fact that you're "bullet-proof" enhances your capabilities for sure!! ;)

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If it's any help, I have a little time to contribute, and some experience at running this sort of thing, meetings, minutes, etc. Obviously with such a large country it will be difficult to get people together but not impossible. I think the concept is good, the name also (and the initials), and all we need is a committee, a bank account, a legal person, and accountant, all as honorary as possible, of course, but at some stage you will have to spend money. If you can form it as a charity, so much the better, but I am more familiar with those laws in UK.


I missed out on all the arguments and stuff, but wouldn't comment anyway, but kudos to blackmac for getting the ball rolling.


I think $50 per year is a more reasonable price, because you need members, and you simply ain't going to get them at $200. Once you have a critical mass, you can start looking at member benefits, such as health insurance, dental, life insurance and other stuff, which is also what it should be doing as well as arguing with employers. I have always had a bee in my bonnet about getting qualifications recognised, and this is also something that colleges could be approached about.


Of course, it should foster professionalism and all that other good stuff as well.


Would appreciate any constructive comments



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Phil - volunteers are a scarce commodity - your post makes great sense and I would be willing to support such an approach, since the confrontational style which is usually associated with the typical "union", will not work for the rotary wing types. Start modestly and earn respect from members and employers alike would be a fresh approach.


If an early goal can be to introduce HAC members (companies) to the goals of HEPAC and both have an understanding where each sits within the rotary world, rather than individual pilots/engineers first pushing an "association" at their workplace, I would hope that management concerns may not be as negative (maybe some wishful thinking in there, but at least management should appreciate a civilized approach from a confrontational one and react accordingly).

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I think a lot of people are missing the point - after all, this was exactly how HAI started, and look at them now!


The real issue, as I see it, and having lurked on this discussion for some time, is that all the companies have representation (and there is an ower's club, no matter how bad they are), but pilots do not. And it's not a voice that's needed necessarily, but recognition of their existence, so that when legislation is put through allowing 42 and even 60 days on duty with no days off, who benefits from that? You could be forgiven for thinking that Transport have an investment in some of the companies around, with what they get up to. And don't come up with the old bromide "Summer's the only time we have to earn any money" - I hear that bleat every year. After 20 days on tour, I want to go home, and the guys who backed into trees and clipped rotor blades last year through chronic fatigue will no doubt agree. That is only one example, and respect for your decisions is another one - why is it that the average customer believes a fork lift driver when he says he can only take 50 items on his machine, yet they tell us how to do our job? We need to make our point more forcibly, and an association, with experts on the board that customers can consult instead of the "consultants" that are currently available, would be a darned good start. We carry a lot of responsibility, and have to sit our final exams every year - we should have recognition for it!


Which leads me to another benefit - being able to talk to the insurance guys and inject some common sense with reference to low time pilots. 2000 hours to fly in the N Alberta oil patch? Give me a break! Also, group discounts and concessions, ete etc. I don't see this as a union at all, and my cheque (for $200) is ready for the post.



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who elso is gonna pay for all this? Why did it start?


I just posted in "what would you do" please read.


You guys hearts are in the right spot but in my opinion going the wrong direction. Stop what is going on with the forging of logbooks, the overbilling which allows operators to get a lower upfront dollar all the while putting in for more hours than flying. This is a criminal activity and for those who don't think so than what do you suggest the other operators do about it.


charles, get your bitterness going the right way, tc is only the enemy if we don't get off our ***** and make them go after these unsrupulous operators. Between doing seismic bag moves by the job and charging for so many dill move an hour while on drilling, people are turning themselves into cheating whores.


I have told more than one customer who asked me for a quote per job that armed with a calculator I could charge them per sunspot but it is all based on so much per hour!


Why are rates low because we would do this even if we weren't paid, but the frigging almighty dollar is getting to be more of a stressor than having fun with the job. The gov't in my opinion let us down by allowing any operator to willy nilly sell their goods for what ever they want whenever they want. Time to take back our fair share and put the operators who don't have to make money on the choppiing block, pretty hard to compete with an operator who sells a B2(new) for 1000 per hour. The operator doesn't give a crap about the local economy as long as he can get some return and lease his own companies more aircraft. See what happens in 5 years, he will be gone with the moola. Why are letting this happen.


Going on about fatigue and hours is bs. Was not an issue years ago, you are tired you don't fly. Operators did there best to supply the crews, go to the root of the problem. Rates aren't goingup because there are cheats and thiefs bringing them down and the rest of us trying to keep our heads above water. Yeah you can guess what happens when you are barely making payments and pilots want more and engineers want more(and maybe rightfully so) you have a fit. Is this the crews fault? Not unless their brothers and sisters are helpiing these companies who forge books and overbill customers, while you say you would never do so.


Charles you say you have nothing to prove then quit poking people with a sharp stick who are trying to work things out, I got nothing to prove either but will continue to prove that I am a person doing the right thing and giving respect to others, reaping what I sow. If you sow lemon seeds you get lemons.


Take no disrespect from my words, take positive action to help get rid of these sobs who are in fact lining their own nests and doing so in a dishonorable method.Figgure out a way to do this we ALL CAN work together to do this. This is a common enemy, who in their right mind would think what these people are doing is ok. Get some facts people from coleagues by whatever means and send the info to TC. I don't want regulation yet but unless we stop the fraud and falsifiing logbooks then regulation is where we will be.


We had none of this bs years ago when you had a base somewhere you had a strong viable business that no operator could move into unless there was proof that there was enough business for them.


Am sick and tired of pilot friends calling and telling me how so and so on a job beside another operator was billing 6 hours a day watching some 206's fly 6's each but billing the customer 3's because that was what the bid was. Are you wanting to get in that 206, not me.


You pilots and engineers out there who are doing this are no better then the scum you work for by doing this. And that is what you are too is scum, I don't care if it is you first job, but it might be your last. You don't like those words, repeat them to your boss or friends or even better TC. This is Canada, you don't have to break the law to earn a paycheck. :angry:




I need a beer.

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I wish there was some way to convince you that you are way, way off base in your assesement of my motivations.


I am 100% in agreement with the frustration you are trying to communicate, but unfortunately there have always been operators that should be put in jail.


**** it man both you and I are on the same side, we just have not been able to express our frustrations in person.


All I can say is that unless. "WE" are you listening "WE" find some way to join together in a cohesive group we ( well not me because f.ck it I'm finished with all this B.S. ) will forever be cut out of the herd individually and sodomized by the very operators you are describing.


I am all for this organization only because I really believe it will benefit everyone...what is there to lose...$50.00 really is not all that much.


And please, please, please understand this...


My problems with TC have zero to do with this subject, nor is it with non conformance to any regulation rule or law.


It was because a couple of maggots in TC Pacific Region thought that they could deny me what every citizen of this country is guaranteed by law. due process.




Sadly I will in all likelyhood never get anywhere with this because the CYA attitude goes right to the top in TC.....


Anyhow I like Don will now bow out and you all can do what ever you wish with your careers, mine was quite sucessful up until three years ago.


In closing if you don't like my attitude and the fact that I would not be sodomized by a couple of TC parasites so be it.



What a way to leave aviation.............................................being lectured to by people who haven't the faintest idea of why I am so frustrated.


All the best, I just hope you don't some day find yourself in the same position.


Chuck Ellsworth

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Please accept my apology, the furthest thing from my mind was to belittle your frustrations with tc, I do not know any information on your plight other than your past posts. Honestly my heart goes out to you and how it must feel to work so hard and have it yanked out you chest by some pr8cks.


My intention was/is to try and get you and others to refocus on what is happening today and tomorrow. From what I have read here I believe that both you and Don have a great deal to put towards an effective winning battle against the bs that people are ignoring. I am not anywhere even close to being able to know the right people in tc and the ins and outs of the buraucracy, we NEED your help.


It just bothers me when people get personal, and disrespectful, I know it will happen again and again and I will do so myself but, nevertheless it bugs me.


We all get emotional at times and it is hard to look into these words to find the sincerity of my thoughts now but try to understand that I am in fact sorry if I made your past seem unworthy of any future discussions.


Perhaps we can build something that will be better and stronger to make a difference, something has to be done to stop the endless cycle of crap we live with in the industry.



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Please do not feel that I am in any way angry with you personally, far from it because there really is no way you would know the situation I have with TC.


If I thought I could do anything for those who work in Aviation both in the industry and all the decent good people who work for TC I would gladly do it.


The problem is beyond us, it is a systemic mindset within the top levels of Government including TC Civil Aviation.


You need only watch Alfonso Gagliano on TV to understand how corrupted our leaders have become.


Skullcap, I went to the Director General with hundreds of pages of documentation asking for his help. The documentation is proof beyond doubt of wrongdoing on the part of the individuals that are named in my complaint to him. There is proof witholding of documents, changing and altering of documents by these people and all we get is denial, stonewalling and arrogance beyond beliefe from the top people in TC.


I have several letters signed by the Director General in answer to my requests for help that are so insulting and arrogant that it is all I can do to not to go to Ottawa and ram the letters up the Director Generals ***.


Now can you see the level of frustration I feel?


So do not worry, I understand what you and all my colleauges want, I just don't know how to help you anymore.


We are friends, not combatants Skullcap.....


Chuck Ellsworth

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