Tsb Report: Aug 2008 B206l Crash Near Terrace

[bleed air]

Good discussion, folks. Thank you. I'd like to add a little clarification if I may.

 

Skids-Up – “Surely we realize that if we do not know what the charts say, it doesn't matter where they are...”

 

Absolutely True!

 

Chopper_guy – “Who cares where the performance data is located? Performance data is REAL. Any pilot who ignores the hover-out-of-ground-effect chart in the mountains, or anywhere, is flying in uncharted waters. However, everyone who has flown drills knows that all kinds of crap gets added after the first loads. You can get an overgross load up under good conditions, not learn that you have a tiger by the tail until it too late to put it back down, and be way over your head putting it down under bad conditions.”

 

Also True!

 

CJM91 – “As for the performance charts, it shouldn't matter where they are. The Gross Weight limit is already in the Limitations Section. I don't think that the Performance Charts could be considered limiting as there are other local site variables that are difficult to quantify or change from load to load (wind, humidity, etc.). They certainly should be a guide, though.”

 

Agreed.

 

However, after several years of conducting PPC’s , it’s been my experience that most if not all reasonably experienced pilots can quote the TQ, Temp and Gross Weight Limits almost in their sleep, but given a fairly straight forward scenario where a weight & balance calculation and check of the performance chart is required…well,… it often turns into quite an exercise.

 

We seem to know the Limitations Section like the back of our hands (if we don’t, we should!) On some level, most of us have some understanding that by exceeding the numbers in the Limitation Section we are doing something wrong, if not illegal, and that there could be real consequences if things should go sideways.

 

So, would it hurt then to put the performance charts in the Limitations Section? Maybe more of us would then realize that 200+ lbs over gross and 500+ lbs over HOGE is really not a good place to be. That way we wouldn’t have to rely on the machine to “talk” to us because, apparently, some of us are still not getting that message.

 

[47G]

I may be wrong, but it is my understanding the information in the Limitations Section of the RFM is the same data that is contained within the Type Certificate Data Sheet, but perhaps explained in laymen's terms. This section of the RFM is approved by the regulatory authorities as a function of type certification of the aircraft. All other pertinent data is to be contained in the "Manufaturer's Data" section of the RFM which is not regulatory authority approved, but provided by the OEM to inform the operator of information required for the understanding of the systems and safe operation of the aircraft under varying conditions. But it all boils down to the fact that anybody who sets foot in the helicopter as PIC should know the RFM and the Manufatures data section like the back of his or her hand otherwise they have no business being PIC on that ship. Just my 2 cents worth. Take care and fly safe.

 

 

[Heli500]

A/c limits are aircraft limits. How many of you out there feel more comfertable taking over a machine that has some sort of a tatel-tale gauge in it. At least you know if the last guy that flew the machine was not abusing it. Its the only way I can think of to keep everyone flying the machine honest and not pushing where the red line is.

 

What about educating the customer better. Drillers are drillers. What they say wieghs 300 lbs is usually like 450. If the helicopter is pulling max power @ 1000' to get the drill off the flat deck that brought it there in May how well is it going to do in Aug at 4000' with the less exeperinced pilot. You guys want change talk to your customer and explain the aircrafts limitations and safety margines. And b*tch at your opps managers for putting you and your co-workers in situations like that.

 

I remember a pilot telling me that he was asked to help out another company move a drill because they were not available. Our 500 had had a load cell and the drill had been placed at 7000' with a jet box. The biggest part of the drill was 1400 lbs ( the drillers had no clue what it weighed) after he slid it off the deck he rode it down to like 2000 or 3000 feet. Im sure he was sweating and crapping himself woundering how he was going to stop at the other end. After all this he at least had the decency to tell the customer to go pump his hat never call us again for help. I'm not to sure what happened to the 206 but im pretty sure it shat out its turbine on the side of a highway about a week or so latter (know one onboard was hurt).

 

All I can say is 95 percent of the time im glad im spinning wrenches and it aint my aurse in the seat and if you use your transients constantly to lift something then your just asking to get bit. Sad reallity is the damage you do to the machine might not bite you or the next guy, but it will defidently bite the owner of said aircraft when it come to pay the standard aero or turbocrappa bill and that just makes for sh*ttier scotch at the christmas party.

 

Cheers all and fly safe

 

 

[cap]

CMJ91 -------your object is to do the best job that you can, based on your ecperience and forget about converting anyone to anything. You've been trusted with someone else's million dollar plus asset and trusted enough to allow you to disappear over the horizon with it. That disappearance may also involve taking that a/c many thounsnds of miles and/or into a foreign country. You take with it your own reputation, the company's and your owner's. BY your actions and decisions you can cause great dmage to all three, BUT be mindful that yours comes first at all times.

 

Don't get 'all hung-up' on the respect thing either. I've been run-off jobs during my 40+ years of flying and that happened at the 1000, 3000, 6000 time frames and even by the time I'd past 20,000. Bottom line, if the last pilot did the job you want and you aren't happy with me, then please allow me to arrange to have that other pilot return because listen carefull........I AIN'T DOIN' IT'. So deal with it or call my Ops Manager and here's that number too. One doesn't have to be saucy or disrespectful when doing so, but you have your limits, so stick to them........annnnnnnnd be consistant at all times regarding those limits.

 

My mention of the bounce on pads was only to demonstrate that one has to pay attention at all times. I'm also aware of what cuses that, but that does not mean that that type of a/c cannot also enter into 'collective bounce', given the right conditions. Use some rubber band-type sling gear with a sling load, hot-dog that load around and you'll soon find out if your a/c will entertain 'collective bounce'.

 

The vast majority of my Permance Charts and the like are in my head and gained through eons of experience. Most of those limits didn't appear in any FM for any a/c I gained that experience on. As a result, I knew that if I was at 100 Q in a 206 and not even out of ground effect yet, I was overgross and I don't give a crap what any FM said. I also knew that if I was on low skids I could stay within 'ground effect' much longer than if I was on high skid gear. That ability allowed me more power than with the high skid geared 206 and allowed me to do other things without having my 'foot in the carburetor' all the time. Those things didn't come from any Bell-inspired FM, but from learning my a/c, 'listening" to it and 'feeling' the messages it was sending me through the controls. Flying isn't only a 'read the guages only' profession, but if one wishes to operate only that way, then 'fill your shoes', but my a*s and fingertips will tell me about problems I have or am going to have imminently long before your guages will. So the FM and Performance Limit Charts are NOT the be all and the end all of your a/c. Getting to 'know it' is even more important and I don't mean knowing every last word printed in that FM or Performance Chart.

 

To me, all weights given to me concerning any load are complete lies unless i have a 'ticket' stating so from an officially-inspected weigh scale of some type. Even then I remain somewhat suspicious. All a/c I take-over command of from another pilot, company or otherwise, have been over-torqued, over-temped or hurt in some other way. Until I feel that that wasn't the case, all of my approaches, take-offs and certain other items are made with that in mind. A good experienced engineer on type that accompanies me will help to allay those concerns very quick. Otherwise, when the horn sounds, I want to be steep on my approach and not too **** shallow. That comes from the 'experience' having the shyte scared outta me too many times. The other thing I do is take note of the a/c registration and if I haven't flown it for quite some time I want to see the names of all the pilots who did so before me. After you've been around long enough, many times I'd see an entry and the name that goes with and say to myself..."Oh boy, just what I needed....to see that name. I can just imagine the heights to which some of these guages have been". I'd then flythat a/c accordingly. If I had an accompanying engineer then many times he'd recognize a name too and offer a comment like "oh boy, this could be a long tour for both us on this thing Cap".

[CJM91]

So, would it hurt then to put the performance charts in the Limitations Section? Maybe more of us would then realize that 200+ lbs over gross and 500+ lbs over HOGE is really not a good place to be. That way we wouldn’t have to rely on the machine to “talk” to us because, apparently, some of us are still not getting that message.

Good point, it would help to raise the awareness but may be technically (legally) difficult. The Limits are defined, measurable boundaries while the Performance Charts are theoretical derivations with some undefinable variables as well. Limitations are enforceable (I think), I'm not sure if the Performance Charts could be.

 

This may well be hair splitting on my part. We should be referring to the PCs more routinely however that is achieved.

 

Cheers . . . . .

 

[CJM91]

Hello cap:

 

...

Don't get 'all hung-up' on the respect thing either. I've been run-off jobs during my 40+ years of flying and that happened at the 1000, 3000, 6000 time frames and even by the time I'd past 20,000. Bottom line, if the last pilot did the job you want and you aren't happy with me, then please allow me to arrange to have that other pilot return because listen carefull........I AIN'T DOIN' IT'. So deal with it or call my Ops Manager and here's that number too. One doesn't have to be saucy or disrespectful when doing so, but you have your limits, so stick to them........annnnnnnnd be consistant at all times regarding those limits.

...

Good advice. Not as easy for a lesser experienced pilot. And much easier if Management is supportive.

 

The vast majority of my Permance Charts and the like are in my head and gained through eons of experience ... and I don't give a crap what any FM said. ... So the FM and Performance Limit Charts are NOT the be all and the end all of your a/c. ... learning my a/c, 'listening" to it and 'feeling' the messages it was sending me through the controls.

...

I know what you're getting at here but the written word has to be a starting point for the newer folks.

 

I know that by "learning my a/c, 'listening" to it and 'feeling' the messages it was sending me through the controls" I could depart a long runway on low skids well over gross. That was the style of the day and I too didn't "give a crap what any FM said" (learning well from my peers). But I'm not sure it was a good thing or a good standard to endorse with the customers or other pilots.

 

I think your message is more by "learning my a/c, 'listening" to it and 'feeling' the messages it was sending me through the controls" I can safely extract maximum legal performance in demanding situations. Ie., being a skilled, experienced, responsible pilot.

 

Hope I'm interpreting your thoughts correctly here, cheers . . . .

 

[cap]

CMJ91 ------ I'll make your first point real simple my friend. If YOU have an accident, it is YOU that TSB inspectors will come looking for first. Any accident report generated as a result of that accident will terminate as to whether it is YOU at fault or somehting or somebody else. Your given employer may/may not be supportive in any role, BUT everything I just mentioned concerning you and an accident will always remain true. Again, you got little experience or you got tons.........THAT doesn't change one iota. Ergo, you get the support that nice; if you don't, nothing has really chnaged in that regard. Hard way to look at things, but it's the way you have to in aviation......specially charter aviation.

 

 

Yes the written word is where you begin, but always strive to reach that point that I was referring to. Will you ever do it?......."No", because they keep amending things, but try anyway.

 

You've misunderstood one particular point and that's obvious. The object of using 'ground effect' for me is NOT to have to keep the needle from going into 'overtorque' for x number seconds. That's never been my object or way of thinking. I call that way of thinking "a R/W way of thinking". I've found that a lot in R/W over the decades and usually comes from pilots who have no F/W background at all. Whether I have the excess power or I don't, I ALWAYS want to be leaving some "in the bank for the wife and kids".......JUST IN CASE. Helps also if there's a sudden change in wind direction just as you're clearing trees. Ergo, 100% torque on ANY a/c is NOT my 100%. Mine arrives sooner than that and if staying within 'ground effect' will accomplish that, then that's just another 'tool' that I use to do that. The number of R/W I've flown over the years and frequency that their Q guages were 'dead-weight tested' or the such before I strapped my heinie into them was also a factor. Too many of them were later found out to be reading in excess of max allowable torque when their guages were saying I was just under max torque. So fluying with me in the bush on F/W would find me staying-put on the runway on T/O well after I was able to do so. If I was going to have an engine failure or such on T/O, then I chose to have it on terre firma rather than 200' over the trees and no place to go, but into the logging business. Again, just another way of thinking.

[tail rotor]

I agree with heli500. Everyone would love to arrive on a job to find the heli has an tatel-tale gauge. It immediatly gets rid of "the last pilot did it".

Its a shi**y deal this accident, as the pilot was a great guy. However this paticular helicopter had moved many drills in the last 3 years that were not light by any means, along with the remainder of the fleet. Maybe if the heli had tatel-tale pilots would'nt push the redline.

[CJM91]

CMJ91 ------ I'll make your first point real simple my friend. If YOU have an accident, it is YOU that TSB inspectors will come looking for first.

...

OK, set your limits and stick to them to avoid the grief listed above. Fair enough.

 

...

You've misunderstood one particular point and that's obvious. The object of using 'ground effect' for me is NOT to have to keep the needle from going into 'overtorque' for x number seconds. That's never been my object or way of thinking. I call that way of thinking "a R/W way of thinking".

...

I'm not sure just which point I misunderstood. I think the use of ground effect and low skids can be used to a] provide an extra power reserve for the unexpected (as in your example) or b] to allow an even larger load with no reserve. It depends upon the pilot, his experience, customer pressure and management pressure. Certainly leaving a bit extra for the unexpeced is a good idea.

 

I think your comment about "and I don't give a crap what any FM said" tends to indicate that you favour b] although I don't think that's what you meant. My only intention in raising it is to suggest that it may give the wrong message about standards and limits.

 

Cheers . . . . .

 

[CJM91]

This is right on the money:

 

I agree with heli500. Everyone would love to arrive on a job to find the heli has an tatel-tale gauge. It immediatly gets rid of "the last pilot did it".

Its a shi**y deal this accident, as the pilot was a great guy. However this paticular helicopter had moved many drills in the last 3 years that were not light by any means, along with the remainder of the fleet. Maybe if the heli had tatel-tale pilots would'nt push the redline.

Me too, especially:

 

What about educating the customer better. Drillers are drillers. What they say wieghs 300 lbs is usually like 450. If the helicopter is pulling max power @ 1000' to get the drill off the flat deck that brought it there in May how well is it going to do in Aug at 4000' with the less exeperinced pilot. You guys want change talk to your customer and explain the aircrafts limitations and safety margines. And b*tch at your opps managers for putting you and your co-workers in situations like that.

It would be interesting to get feedback on the telltale gauge idea. I've only seen a few recording TOTs and no recording TQ meters although I'm sure they exist. One summer I flew a H500 with a hook scale. It was great, settled a lot of arguments and taught me a lot about how lift varies with the environment more than I expected.

 

Cheers . . . . .