Sam Video

[jetbox]

Take it easy Skid, we're just exchanging opinions, that's what this forum is all about. :up:

 

I want our boys and girls back home more than anything, the timing has to be right.

You're right about that TQN, the Americans have to stay there until the Iraqis can run the place on their own, otherwise, the result will be another Vietnam or Soudan; so many lives lost for nothing.

I agree with you also as far as religious fanatics go, we (western civilizations) have as many of them as the muslim world does. They're usually not as dangerous however because they're not prepared to give up their cable TV and their SUV's to fight their cause. They're all fanatics all the same. Nothing wrong with their religion, weather it be Christianity, Muslim, Judeism etc.. The problem is the way they interpret it and probably the fact that they've known only poverty and hardship all their lives so they have nothing to loose by strapping themselves to 20lbs of explosives!!!! Still no excuse!

 

As far as global terrorism goes, I think we brought it on ourselves by getting involved in battles that perhaps weren't ours to fight in the first place.

I'm just tired of all the hypocracy coming out of politicians mouths. Just come right out and say it already: We saw an oppertunity to take control of vast reserve of oil and we took it, period!! At least they'd be honest.

 

Would Iraq have been invaded if there was no oil in its sand? Not likely. North Korea has a known nuclear weapons capability and it's government is unstable at best. Why aren't we "liberating" North Koreans???? They're a much bigger potential threat than Iraq ever was.the fine art of healthy debate is a good thing

If nothing else TQN, I agree wholeheartedly on that point. It's also nice to get an American perspective on the issue. :up:

 

Fire at will!!!

[transquebecniece]

I totally concur with Jetbox on the first and final thoughts below, though just partially on the remainder.

 

I mentioned 911 in reference to global terrorism because it's still a soft spot here at home. I can assure you that the hundreds of thousands of families affected by those bombings did not "ask for it" nor did our government or anything in the political history of the United States warrant the acts of 911 as "righteous retribution."

 

As you know, global terrorism hits everywhere---including Russia, Japan, Spain, Israel, Africa to name a few. And I have no doubt that if, God forbid, anything like 911 occurred in Canada you would not say "you asked for it." Not because of any of Canada's political and/or military activity or inactivity at home or abroad, but simply because no one asks for this to happen. Canada, also a wonderful democracy, is not immune to terror strikes. Our (yours and my) way of life, our freedoms and all that we stand for and hold dear are what terrorists despise. And you said it yourself: "They have nothing to loose by strapping themselves to 20lbs of explosives!" That is what makes us all a target...a gian, red, pulsing bulls-eye. We don't ask for it; it comes to us purposely.

 

The wars in both Afghanistan and Iraq were direct responses to terrorist threats aimed at America. The wars would have happened if there were no oil in Iraq. I can't address whether or not American oil interests fuel the War in Iraq (I'm not up to speed on that aspect), but I will say that what country among us is not dependent upon the precious oil reserves of the Middle East? This natural resource SHOULD be secured, whether in the Middle East or elsewhere, for the world's countries before any Middle Eastern idiot can set them ablaze like they did in the Persian Gulf.

 

As for Korea; we'd all be wise to keep an eye on what's going on over there.

 

It's amazing how careful one must choose their words...I hope not to offend anyone...

[Guest jesse]

To clarify my previous post I wasn't intending to compare WW2 with Iraq or any other war in a political or moral way. I was only using it as an example of how despite the daily financial cost of war, that alone is not the determining factor in whether or not a war should or should not have happened. The daily cost of war and a website link were mentioned in a post before mine and i was only responding to the comment that war is insanity because of the daily cost.

[transquebecniece]

My fault, Jesse, for confusing your comment of war comparison to cost of war in the previous post.

 

And Jetbox, this might give you a better understanding about where we stand with North Korea for the time being: http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0827/p07s01-woap.html

It's a little dated, but thoughts on this haven't changed much to the best of my knowledge. Further, I don't recall that North Korea's ruler is involved in acts of genocide or anything else that would elicit an all-out attack by the U.S. or any other country at this time; but I could be wrong. You mentioned that WW2 was needed to "save the world from a madman," i.e., Hitler. Would you not consider Hussein and Bin Laden beasts of a similar species? Not to take ANYTHING away from the families who suffered loss at Hitler's hands, but the mind doesn't have to wander far to see how the latter two madmen could easily repeat historical atrocities if given the opportunity. Madmen come in many shapes and sizes and forms of insanity; I'm not particularly fond of their skewed vision of the western world. You're probably not either.

 

BTW, I can't tell from your post if you're Canadian or American. I think the former, but your references to "we" make we wonder about the latter. Not that it matters. We're all entitled to our opinions (one freedom that I cherish, can you tell? ) and I appreciate hearing all sides...

[Skidz]

Just to add my 2 bits:

 

Canada isn't really a target for terrorists per se. We do however have a problem of terrorists using our country as a save haven and staging area for attacks on the USA.

 

I don't want to pour oil on any fires here, but IMHO, US foreign policy is not so much about "fostering democracy" or "freeing oppressed peoples" as it is about promoting and protecting US economic interests abroad. It has been said time and again that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 or any other terrorist endeavors against direct US targets.

 

I don't think Americans would be so much in favour of this war if their government stated "We're doing this primarily to promote US oil interests in the region and to protect Israel". It just wouldn't fly. it's an easier sell when they say they're going to "free" Iraqis. History has shown time and again that "liberating" an oppressed society more often than not leads to an even worse form of oppression down the line...

[Helilog56]

This thread and that video is disturbing. What justifies war? .........Who gives a dam about "monetary cost". The highest price paid in war.....human life and suffering...... :down:

[Guest jesse]

"History has shown time and again that "liberating" an oppressed society more often than not leads to an even worse form of oppression down the line"

 

 

Try convincing the kurdish population in Iraq of that Im willing to bet they would take there chances with democracy over a dictatorship.

[Skidz]

If you look closely into the Kurdish "situation", you'll find that, not only are Kurds being "oppressed" by Turkey to the north, Iraq to the south and Iran to the east, but they're slaughtering one another as well in their tribal wars. The Americans have exacerbated this situation by giving squillions of greenbacks to Kurdish warlords for their support against Iraq...

[Guest jesse]

Regardless Skidz i cant be convinced that a dictatorship is better for the people as a whole. Give an example of a dictatorship that provides the quality of life for its people that rivals western standards.

[jetbox]

TQN, I am Canadian but when I say "we", I mean North America and perhaps the western world as a whole, or at least the nations that make up the U.N.

 

I don't consider Hitler, Saddam and Bin Laden to be in the same category for the following reasons:

1- Hitler was a deranged lunatic but brilliant strategist that believed he could take control of the world and that "his" world would be a far better place if there were no "inferior" humans part of it, which led him to "eliminate" millions of Jews, handicaped, and other denominations he thought of as "inferior". If we hadn't interfered, he would eventually have taken over the world to achieve his goal. At the time that we joined WW2, he was an incredible threat to the world because he had by then develloped a formidable self sufficient war machine with well trained troops, weapons and new technology.

 

2-Saddam was nothing but a cowardly bully (either as insane as Hitler or lacking what should've been very precious inteligence reports on just how powerfull the American military really is!) who only exerted his power on the week and unprotected i.e. the Kurds and Kuwait.

The first golf war was completely justified because we were liberating a sovereign nation from an unjustified invasion.

The second gulf war was supposedly meant to protect the United States against a mad man with weapons of mass destruction. When America invaded Iraq, Saddam's army, infrastructure and country as a whole had been reduced ruins after 10 years of U.N. sanctions.

AND, the U.S. administration finally admited there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, something the U.N. inspectors had been saying all along before the war started.

Therefore, he practically had no military left to defend himself, let alone attack the U.S. and there have been no links between Saddam and Al Quaida, so where,s this threat?????

Al Quaida has benifited finacially directly or indirectly from Saudi Arabia, not Iraq. Have we forgotten the origin of 19 of the 9/11 terrorists???

I ask again, how was Saddam and what was left of his military any kind of threat to the U.S.??

If genocide is justification for invading Iraq, then why didn't we help the millions of people killed in Rouwanda?????

 

As far as Bin Laden goes (and most other anti-U.S. terrorists), they all say they despise the "American lifestyle and values" but the main reason they target the U.S. is because it protects Israel against a Muslim world that believes Jews don't belong in the middle east (even though Jews have been there just as long as Arabs) This is what I meant by "fighting battles that perhaps aren't ours to fight".

 

Non of the 9/11 victims deserved what they got but on the same token, there have been a lot more innocent victims hurt by American foreign policy than

there ever has been in America.

 

Don't take my opinons as anti-American, I'm just tired of the hypocricy that's all.

And you're right about us Canadians not being above terrorists attacks. At least you guys can defend yourselves! Our government has disgracefully abandoned our once proud military to such extremes, that we have to rent American and Russian airplanes to send our troops in Asia for tsunami relief. And during the first Gulf war, our CF-18 fighter jets weren't allowed to join in the attack runs because their radio and avionics packages are 25 years outdated and they couldn't comunicate with the rest of the coalition.

 

So as I sit here passing judgement on American foreign policy, I'm even more frustrated at the fact that our Canadian government spends more time worrying about weather or not to legislate gay marriage, and important issues like health care and our military continue to be tossed aside. :up: