New Standard Weights

[Sisyphus]

The standard passenger weights have been increased. The AIP details the changes.

 

The previous weights were too low, resulting in more than a few overloaded helicopters. Perhaps these new numbers will motivate pilots to actually weigh what goes in their machines. This is the only way to know exactly what the gross weight is. This knowledge is vital to safe and professional operation.

 

Even with the new numbers, overloading is certain to occur on some occassions. For averages to work, the science of statistics requires a minimum sample size of fifteen, far below the capacity of light helicopters. In fact, the use of histograms describing the weights of human beings and a little bit of high school math will allow a statistician to determine what the probability of overloading is.

 

The Owner's Club is up in arms. Their discontent can be viewed in their newsletter of January 14, 2005 wherein they declare that the new weights are for amatuers. This is offensive.

 

The establishment has often labelled those who do not like some the existing regulations (flight duty times) as whiners. Look who is whining now. Their often stated advice is applicable. Deal with it. The change is long overdue

[cap]

Sorry, but my Q guage and the a/c tells me how much weight I got onboard AND the a/c

NEVER lies. If I can't do that, then I better get some more OJT on that a/c. The new weights are just the weights that can be used for entry into the journey to keep the flight legal ON PAPER and NOTHING ELSE. If the AIP weights say that I am legal weight, but I gotta pull 54 PSI and use some right pedal to get off in a 205 with full pax, then that girl is over-gross or has a guage, engine or pilot problem and I don't give a **** what the AIP states otherwise. One thing I can also be assured of......MoT won't argue with me on what I just stated and if I obey that rule, they'll never find me over-gross. So much for bathroom scales or having some 250lb Albertan aboriginal tell me that he's about 200lbs. He may be able to fool me, but he ain't foolin the lady that he's planting his butt in and she'll tell me in short order who's full of crap.

 

Sorry Sisyphus, I'm a pilot.....not a robot.... I "fly" the a/c......I don't just sit there, watch guages, utilize the radios and move some levers. Anyone wants that, hire themselves a Vancouver taxicab driver.

[Skidz]

I'm a pilot.....not a robot.... I "fly" the a/c......I don't just sit there, watch guages, utilize the radios and move some levers. Anyone wants that, hire themselves a Vancouver taxicab driver.

 

This wouldn't be a jab at a certain Vancouver based, scheduled route air taxi operator now would it ? :shock:

[downwash]

Come on, Skidz. You know Cap better than that!

 

But you've given me a good idea, Cap. Why don't we lobby T.C. to make use of all the time we now spend in airport security waiting lines? Let's make them 'weighting' lines, instead (i.e. while the security wonks snailishly grind us through, why not get accurate weights for the airlines?).

[cap]

Skidz ------I don't deal in and can't stand innuendo. I got something to say, I'll say it using small words so that even the gang from "Deliverance" can understand it. I may have many reputations, both good and bad, but those that know me will confirm that about me for sure.If I don't want to do that I keep my "pie hole' shut. Oh and no offense taken and you ruffled no feathers on his end of the stick. I don't offend that easy either

 

Downwash ------since I leave it to the last minute and spend those last minutes in the bar, I'd have to think on that That wouldn't work either if the Captain heard "Vne" from the FO and only used the guages to sense if "this mother' actually wanted to "rotate". He better know more than that or you and I will arrive at the crash scene about 2 seconds after him........I fly economy you understand.

[Skids Up]

If the AIP weights say that I am legal weight, but I gotta pull 54 PSI and use some right pedal to get off in a 205 with full pax, then that girl is over-gross or has a guage, engine or pilot problem and I don't give a **** what the AIP states otherwise

Cap,

 

I agree with you, but let me throw out something... :oops:

 

Although I 'know' what you're saying, think about this. If you 'Take Off' (ie skids leave the ground) and you determine that because of the guages you are too heavy, it's too late, cause you already broke the regs! :shock:

 

It's against the rules to 'fly' an overweight A/C and I don't think you can 'fly' it, to find out if you're too heavy.

 

Because we call ourselves professionals, isn't that suppose to mean that we know we are too heavy to take off before we take off.

 

The previous weights were too low, resulting in more than a few overloaded helicopters

 

And this is one of the stupid (no offense, but it really is) statements that can be said. can anyone expect to stand in court and say "but judge, I used the weights in the AIP. How was I to know it might be different?"

 

I realize that there is not a scale behind every tree, but that does not relieve us from the responsibility of knowing for sure. :up:

 

OK - now I'm ready to take some flack... :rant:

[jetbox]

I kind of have to agree with Skids up on this one. Aren't you supposed to know before you even get in the A/C weather or not it'll be over or under gross weight??

Isn't calculating your take off weight part of your pre-flight planning?

[cap]

Skids Up -----we ain't carrying cargo...we're supposedly carrying passengers, so don't throw them out. They got on under their own power and they can get off under their own power.......you misunderstood what I meant and I'll let it go this time. Do it again and the beatings will begin shortly afterwards.

 

I know that each psi at sea level will lift 200lbs on a normal day....250lbs on a cold day.......and I can pull 54 psi.....do the math. Find out how that changes and varies with altitude, with temp and with RH on YOUR a/c and how it also applies to your Ng and EGT in those same days. Fly it for a while and get to know her and let her tell you. The AIP won't help one little iota in this learning and listening curve anymore than it will tell you when to flare during an autorotation. It's a developed sense, feeling and getting to know THAT particular 205, 204 or whatever type. She'll tell you exactly when she's over-gross and by how much.

 

****When you are doing that math for the 205 I spoke of, you'll THEN understand how easy it is to "butcher" that a/c. You can rip the load beam out of it if you so choose because she will do way more up to 2500' than she's supposed to be able to do according to the FM. The FM or the AIP say nothing about "the Huey shuffle" for example, but when she does that as she goes through translation, you are going flying whether you want to or not and she'll climb like a homesick angel no matter how over-gross you are. Lastly and most importantly, learn quickly about something called "the Huey tuck" otherwise you just might be one of the one's to have a "bad hair day" sometime in the near future. If you take off with her properly, she'll never show you how displeased she is by doing that "tuck".

 

My apologies because it was not my intent to lecture, but only show that one has to know their a/c, let it talk to them and "FLY IT". Also that NOT EVERYTHING is in the FM or AIP. The most valuable resource a pilot has is not the FM, but the M & O Manual and that manual helps speed up that learning process big time. ....that and your experience on that a/c type, built up over many years of "flying it" and not just occupying a seat and moving some controls. I trust you understand all this because I can't explain my feelings about this subject any better.

[Harmonic_Vibe]

Also, what Cap forgot to mention, is that the passengers are quite often loaded without you even looking them in the eye. If you're flying a Jetranger and have four passengers obviously over 220lbs and expect to use 188 lbs for each one in your calculations because the regs say you can... well it's on your head when the Q needle hits 120 as you clear the trees. But on a fire, you can land in an area with 200 guys waiting (weighting?) to be picked up and they just jump on 'cause they've all been trained and briefed... I've had 16 guys try to get on at the end of the day before... so what Cap is saying is that he can tell, in that limited circumstance, what his AUW is.

 

Whoever said that Helicopter and Airliner ops are different hit the nail on the head. I have been on a 737 in the States where the lightest person I saw was over 200lbs... 'cause it was a kid about 12... and I knew the aircrcrew were basing their aircraft's performance on standard weights... which are waaaaaaay out to lunch these days. I usually use 200 lbs for each guy if I'm calculating a performance issue... and if it's close I'll get actual weights.

 

That being said, some aircraft (notably the 206) will barely lift their legal gross weight (I can already hear people screaming "it will at 90% blah blah blah.... but under a LOT of the conditions we work in it simply doesn't have enough power to hurt itself). Most pilots cut their teeth on a 206... and they develop an attitude wherein they feel that as long as you keep the torque under the redline (or under 110% in some companies) then you're ok. When you move to an aircraft with a higher power/gross weight ratio, this doesn't really work at low density altitudes.

 

A lot of people don't understand that a key issue involved in the allowable gross weight of an aircraft during certification is the "power off" performance. That is why we have an increased gross weight for external load work... it's jettisonable. A B2 will lift a lot more than it's legal internal gross weight under certain altitude/temperature conditions, but how will it autorotate?

 

So, after that longwinded discourse, I'm agreeing with Cap... but also disagreeing in that not every aircraft is is created equal. I think using "official" standard weights is ridiculous.... in the same way that most of the stuff that TC hands down is geared towards airline operations. A practiced eye can, in just a few seconds, "weigh" a group... and a very diplomatic individual can even ask a "rotund" woman what she tips the scales at... I never would mind you...

 

HV

[Skids Up]

Cap,

 

I agree with you!! Wasn't trying to pick a fight - ok maybe a little...

 

My point was, that if we do a pick to see how heavy we are, then we're not fulfilling our role as a professional. Knowing the A/C and what it is telling is, is most important without a doubt.

 

The whole TC thing sets us up for a problem, cause we know the airlines work that way, why can't we. But hey, maybe Boeing and the rest build their A/C with lots of safety margins for weight, and the helicopter people just haven't thought of doing that yet. :down:

 

But we easily fall into the "10 people x 200 lbs = no problem" (or worse: 10 x 188 = big problem) when we guesstimate our loads. Been there done that - like many of us - just doesn't make it right.

 

... and a very diplomatic individual can even ask a "rotund" woman what she tips the scales at... I never would mind you...

 

You can handle this like 407Driver did once.

 

He was hauling skiers into a lodge, and while waiting for weather, one of the female guest walked over and steped on the scales he had at the hangar. After observing the result, she said quit indigently "This scale is wrong, I DON'T weight that much." So 407 Driver walked over to the grocery pile and picked up a bag of flour, set it on the scale and said, "looks like it's pretty accurate to me!"

 

Not many brownie point that day... :up: :up: