Astar Longline Windows...out Or In?

[Jammed left]

Without spiralling into the "well if you just longline out of a different machine, it won't be a problem"....I'd love hear thoughts on taking the bottom longline window out of the cowling. I've just experienced the 'relative' joys of taking the window out, but there is some concerns over the 'legal' issue of this...

 

thoughts?

 

 

JL

[helidude]

It's 100% illegal unless you have an approval recognized by Transport Canada. Legalities asside, you should be worried about something called aerodynamics. The open hole in that cowling could be acting like a big airscoop and putting tons of stress on the cowling which may or may not be able to handle it.

If your window is worn out or scratched, try a new one, it may be all you need.

[RTR]

Yep helidude is right. The legal issue is that once you take the window out it no longer conforms to the STC, and is now an unapproved installation.

Not to mention the increased loads on the cowling, the close proximity of the now gaping hole to your flight control tubes and bellcranks (do you really want grass, weeds, birds, dogs, squirrels, debris from downwash etc etc etc to have easy access there?).

 

If the window is crazed replace it.

 

Just my humble yet edumacated $0.02

 

RTR

[ray]

There are STC's out there to put an extra large window on the belly. It makes long line work a lot easier.

[RTR]

Chinooks vertical ref window is the best I have seen. Much bigger and better than ECL or dart.

 

RTR

[Jammed left]

OK...I'm an advocate of the devil for now..

 

STC and legalities...my understanding is that the STC includes the upper floor window, so if this is removed already, which most machines I've seen are....isn't this illegal already, so we're dealing with degress of illegality...as far as dirt dust, weeds near the control tubes, the bottom of the astar is open, holes at the crosstubes, and near the hook assembly already allow all manner of stuff up into the belly...everytime I drop the belly panel, I find this stuff, the open window actually cleans this stuff out...

 

I think I'm interested in the stress on the belly panel....although I don't get a sense that there is a great deal of stress going on, no vibrations (like when you have all the doors off one side), no great wind velocity coming up the hole...

 

give me more....

[Guest bag swinnger]

Flew 90 miles with the window out two days ago in a snow storm, and nothing but a light vacum was witnessed. The fact that the window was out is an entirley different story though.....I did notice an increase in visibility and would love to longline with it out if had the chance.

[rainman]

I agree with Bag swinger.

I learned how to fly bags in a machine that was getting that lower window replaced. Only it took a week? Was great for visibility and dropping presents on the hounds at mini staging :up:

[Harmonic_Vibe]

I have removed the window when I couldn't see through it until a replacement could be acquired. It makes a huge difference. Unfortunately, you're completely on your own when you go out on a limb like that, even though your intentions are to make the job easier and safer for all concerned.

 

I don't know about the Chinook window but the Dart definitely has an upper window that is part and parcel of the installation. Since EVERYBODY removes the upper window the install is already out of compliance. I have dropped the forward belly cowling when washing the machine and found 6 water bottles, pens, pencils, lunch bags and other assorted flotsam from a busy summer's flying. Debris can enter through the chin windows (especially if the little fish plates are removed) but, mostly, through the upper removed window.

 

There is a definite vacuum with the lower window removed (I recently had one depart in flight due to an improper installation) but no buffeting of any kind... I suspect there would be no aerodynamic issues to sort out if someone wanted to get the removal approved (a great idea I think).

 

Now... on a similar note; Has anyone ever flown a medium with the bubble window cut out to see better? Has anyone ever seen an approval to cut and chop a purchased, stc'd window? I haven't... Maybe one exists somewhere but I have worked for companies that get a new bubble and immediately cut it out... is this more illegal than the removal of the Astar window? How about 206 bubbles? I have seen them cut out as well... this is also illegal from what I can gather... just because "it's always been done" doesn't make it ok as far as regulatory bodies are concerned.

 

I'd hazard a guess that a slider or a removable window should be the next area of improvement in the Astar window field. When the sun is low in the hills and you can't see a friggin' thing below you, it would sure make a huge difference... and it would be safer, regardless of what the average TC Inspector would think (the vast majority - approaching unanimity I would guess - never having done any of the jobs they are trying to regulate).

 

HV

 

P.S. Anyone see the size of that chicken??????????

[RTR]

All good posts....just a note on the legalities. "More illegal" and "degree's of ilegallity" hmmmm.....Kinda like only being a little bit pregnant don't you think?

 

It is either an approved installation or it is illegal.

 

just my couple of pesos worth.

 

cheers,

RTR