Union Or Not

[Blackmac]

pilot5;

 

Without getting into re-hashing the whole HEPAC scenario, everything you are talking about was covered a long time ago and some. I would have thought you would off had enough sense to do a little research prior to making comments about unions on this web site. It is a sensitive subject to some people.

 

Have a great non union/association day.

 

Cheers, Don

 

This should help some:

 

CITT - Procurement - Determinations - HELICOPTER ENGINEERS AND ...

7 Oct 2008 ... Subject: Industry Self Management Feasibility Study Helicopter Engineers and Pilots Association, Canada (File No. PR-2007-013) ...

www.citt.gc.ca › Home › Procurement › Determinations - Cached

 

TCCE - Marchés publics - Décisions - HELICOPTER ENGINEERS AND ... - [ Translate this page ]

Objet : Étude de faisabilité à l'égard de l'autogestion de l'industrie. Helicopter Engineers and Pilots Association, Canada (dossier no PR-2007-013) ...

www.citt.gc.ca › Accueil › Marchés publics › Décisions - Cached - Similar

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HEPAC submits SMS - Industry Self Management proposal to Transport ...

Looking towards the future, the Helicopter Engineers and Pilots Association, Canada (HEPAC) has submitted a proposal to Transport Canada for the ...

www.helicoptersmagazine.com/content/view/862/137/ - Cached

 

HEPAC Taking Shape: Membership Growing, Priorities Are Set ...

For those who haven't, the acronym stands for the Helicopter Engineers and Pilots Association of Canada. Although HEPAC has been around since 2003, ...

www.helicoptersmagazine.com/content/view/1080/ - Cached

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[FREDDIE]

I asked HEPAC for a position on the work permit issue and got no answer. I paid my money and joined and even talk a couple of other guys into joining. I think if the association would have put forward a position on this issue more peaple would have joined. I think the mentoring program would be a valuable program but with the volume of employment challenged personal not as nessessary as a united voice on the permits. Heck I even asked the question on the HEPAC forum no responce there either.

 

It would be good if HEPAC would make another try we do need a united voice. The thought of a typical union would be a total waste, but a association that would be one voice on issues with Transport would be a good thing. To deal with owners on a one to one basis would never work but to lobby Government and HAC on issues would be a positive avenue.

 

Here are some issues I think that need to be addressed.

 

The work permit issue.

 

The Life insurance cost issue.

 

These are two issues that I think are important I know there are other issues that effect other peaple write them down and see if others agree.

 

 

I will say it again no union but an association to lobby on issues that effect air crews and their families. Freddie/Steve Schulte

[pilot5]

I asked HEPAC for a position on the work permit issue and got no answer. I paid my money and joined and even talk a couple of other guys into joining. I think if the association would have put forward a position on this issue more peaple would have joined. I think the mentoring program would be a valuable program but with the volume of employment challenged personal not as nessessary as a united voice on the permits. Heck I even asked the question on the HEPAC forum no responce there either.

 

It would be good if HEPAC would make another try we do need a united voice. The thought of a typical union would be a total waste, but a association that would be one voice on issues with Transport would be a good thing. To deal with owners on a one to one basis would never work but to lobby Government and HAC on issues would be a positive avenue.

 

Here are some issues I think that need to be addressed.

 

The work permit issue.

 

The Life insurance cost issue.

 

These are two issues that I think are important I know there are other issues that effect other peaple write them down and see if others agree.

 

 

I will say it again no union but an association to lobby on issues that effect air crews and their families. Freddie/Steve Schulte

 

 

Totally agree!. Its too bad that despite clear, concise and concrete statements concerning the difference between an association and a union that the fear factor is still there. The reality is that a UNION will never happen due to the impossibility of organizing one amongst the many small medium and large companies. It's just not a realistic possibility due to the legal requirements and logistics. An association on the other hand is a great idea and very doable! But it needs a very popular concern to make a strong membership possible. This is the only way!!

 

P5

 

 

[Guest Bullet Remington]

A union wil not work, not now not ever. An association won't work either! Priimarily because of the size of the country, as in we are spread out all over the freakin place. Nothing is ever accomplished by computer exchanges. The only way to discuss the issues(and they are varied) is a face to face sit down! And a new "örganization" hasn't the funding to finance the transportation nor meeting place costs.

 

The other major FUBAR is the points of concern. For example, Life insurance to me and a truckloard of other folks, (engineers) this is a moot issue and we feel it shouldn't be an agenda item.

 

The other concern is the driver / mechanic issue. The drivers are legislated up the ying yang, and engineers aren't. Despite the muttering of some how we all get along, there are inherent resentment issues (albeit minor to some) that unde lie these organizations and issues. Consequently, finding a harmonic balance between drivers and us greasy paws will be a challenge of monumental proportions. Despie having a commonality in the working environment, there are drastic differences in the views and issues driving drivers and mechs!

 

There have been a concerted and gallant effort made by a few to get HEPAC off the ground. And while I agree that the SOME of the issues raised were off the wall (from my point of view) the intent was there, however mis-aimed it was!

 

The statement of establishing some common goal and/or aim to arouse the ire and/or interst of the many is commendable. Having said that, I strongly doubt that will happen. There isn't enough commonality with the drivers and mechs as a group nor is there enough commonality amonst engineer specifically! And there is a drastic disimilarity in the pay scales, consequently while the engineers give a shyte, we don't necessarily give a crap about the drivers, we tend to be more self absorbed!! Unfortunately, that is a fact!LOL

 

And yes, I was a paid up member of HEPAC. and I can ssure you that I didn't necessarily agree with several of the directions the oragnization expressed interest in. Having said that, to a point I gave the benefit of doubt. AND, should a serious and concerted attempt to orgaize be attempted, I would seriously look at supporting the attempt as well!

 

Having said that,I really don't see any kind of organized attempt to oganize the front line of this industry working any time soon. While I neither condemn nor condone it, the owners have pretty well dicated the working conditions for eons, and will continue to do so. If I don't like it and won't accept it, somebody else will!!

[FREDDIE]

You might want to ask your life insurance provider how it would be effected if you were in a unscheduled aircraft incident. I havent done the research on that but if you were to dig into the fine print you might find that your familly could be left hi and dry. If you only fly in scheduled flights you are probably ok. Just my Life insurance salesmans point of veiw after consulting the underwriter.

 

[helidriver68]

good point , who should we be looking at for helicopter life insurance , to cover us , if we dont work for company xx and only work for the short tern 3 or 4 months at a time maybe a guy should loook after his own all year ,

 

whats your input on this ??????

thanks

h

 

[Guest Bullet Remington]

Geez! i din't thinkmy newfie Accent was that strong!! I did state that insurance is NOT an issue with me! that means i carry my own and i'm covered. If I ravel Sacre canada, I'm covered. If I am required to reavel as a condition of employment , I'm covered, Then agaibn, i don't FLY for a living any more, even though I am a licensed pilot.

 

So I repeat, Insurance is a moot point and holds no interest for me, therefore i would prefer to NOT waste my time discussing the insurance issue as created by others.

 

I believ I stated that in my previous post. I also stated ther was a difference in what us greasy guys percieve as a "deal breaker"when compared to what drivers percieve as a 'deal breaker'.

 

if you need auto insurance, you go get it, house insurance, go get it, life insurance on a morgage, go get it, it's cheaper if you get your own rather then using that provided bythe bank. i see no difference do it this way then depending upon an employer to provide it - or an association. Insurance is no different then a job. If ya want it bad enough, you'll find a way to get it!

 

It just fortifies what I have already stated. An associtaion won't work. To many differ priorities.

 

NOTE'When I say "YOU" I'm making a general statement, as in the second party of a conversation. It is NOT directed at any particular person nor persons.

[FREDDIE]

So what is a issue that effects you BR ? You tear up the ones that affect me and many others in the industry lets hear what you would like to be voiced.

 

[oil pressure]

Geez! i din't thinkmy newfie Accent was that strong!! I did state that insurance is NOT an issue with me! that means i carry my own and i'm covered. If I ravel Sacre canada, I'm covered. If I am required to reavel as a condition of employment , I'm covered, Then agaibn, i don't FLY for a living any more, even though I am a licensed pilot.

 

So I repeat, Insurance is a moot point and holds no interest for me, therefore i would prefer to NOT waste my time discussing the insurance issue as created by others.

 

I believ I stated that in my previous post. I also stated ther was a difference in what us greasy guys percieve as a "deal breaker"when compared to what drivers percieve as a 'deal breaker'.

 

if you need auto insurance, you go get it, house insurance, go get it, life insurance on a morgage, go get it, it's cheaper if you get your own rather then using that provided bythe bank. i see no difference do it this way then depending upon an employer to provide it - or an association. Insurance is no different then a job. If ya want it bad enough, you'll find a way to get it!

 

It just fortifies what I have already stated. An associtaion won't work. To many differ priorities.

 

NOTE'When I say "YOU" I'm making a general statement, as in the second party of a conversation. It is NOT directed at any particular person nor persons.

the nice thing about this forum is it is not dictated by the government, so you dont have to WASTE your time on it. the amount of time spent on it is completely at the discretion of the reader. therefore one can log out and direct their time in a more productive direction.

the idea of an association is good and members would have to sometimes field other peoples views whether you agree with there importance or not. personal agedas would sometimes have to be set aside.

[Guest Bullet Remington]

So what is a issue that effects you BR ? You tear up the ones that affect me and many others in the industry lets hear what you would like to be voiced.

 

Freddie:

 

Huh?? I didn't tear up any issue that affects you nor anybody else. Like you I expressed my opinion. I have my own insurance, it expires in June this year and I won't be renewing it - I'm outa the business! And I also carry liability insurance. I have a bit of difficulty understanding your ( and others) stance on the life insurance issue. If you want it , go get it! Why is the responsibilty of an association and/or employer to provide this? I am NOT being sarcastic, I just don't understand the point? Care to clarify this for me?? Is the life insurance issue a pilot thing and is so, why??

 

As I stated, I'm outa the industry. I make more then triple what a pilot on the heavies make, doing fleet management and fleet maintenance. Plus I'm home every night, I don't have to put up with owner's whinning, the vehicle owners pay on time (or they don't get the truck back) and they don't sit and argue the bill! They dfeliver the vehicle to me at their expense, i don't have to go nor do I send any of my people out side to work on them! I don't work weekends, nor hol;idaysm nor weding anniversaries and neither do my people! IF I ask them to they get paid triple time and I pay for the night out with their partner.

 

I don't really have an issue with the business any more. I did, but trying to discuss it and / or doing anything about it was like wrestling with a pig. Ya just got filthy, ya can't win because the pig actually enjoys the attention. Having said that, being in the helicopter racket is not unlike being a drug addict. Ya can stop using but the addiction is still there!!!LOL

 

So, what is the big issue with insurance?? I 'honestly don't get it!!

 

And Oil Pressure. What the heck is your point?? Newly licensed driver are ya???LOL