Flight Duty Time Limitations In Other Jurisdictions

[Skids Up]

Personally, I think there should be no reduction for jettisonable external loads, but I would like to see 10% of payload (HOGE weight – Empty weight = payload) reduced for internal loads.

 

This was the "norm" when I was in the States 'quite' a few years ago...

 

If I remember correctly: -150 lbs on a jet buggy, -180 lbs on a longranger for internal loads.

[Harmonic_Vibe]

Well, I find it necessary to further explain. I have received two emails from pilots telling me I'm an <expletive> for suggesting there should be no reduction from Chart HOGE for external loads. As one pointed out, many machines will not lift the weight the chart says. This is true. He specifically referred to the Bell 212, which I can completely agree with. As a matter of fact, when I was flying diamond drills in Africa with a 212 I used HOGE-10% as the weight it would barely hover at OGE. Bell charts suck.

 

That being said, a B2 will lift way more than Chart HOGE in certain conditions. It is very much type and condition specific. I was simply saying that if you can legally lift it (on paper I mean) and the machine will actually do it than I don't have a problem with it. If something goes wrong then the load can be jettisoned and the machine is now very light. It's true that you might end up in downflow or something and could really use some extra margin but where do you draw the line?

 

I am not at all against a client wanting to reduce weights for slinging to provide more margin. I was merely prioritizing what I thought was most important... The thought of me with 14 dudes and no engine at 6000' on a 25 degree day is frightening to the extreme... The thought of having a 3400lb power pole in the same situation I do not find disturbing... I know I won't be landing with that pole on I can tell you that.

 

Anyway, everyone's entitled to their opinion, and the above expressed views are mine!

 

HV

[Zazu]

Wow!...now this is interesting. Agree with HV 100 percent. But I don't like to type that much so here's my view:

 

1) I am a pilot

2) That would make me a Pilot in COMMAND

3) If I get tired...I go to sleep.

4) If customer does not like...he can get somebody else

5) If boss does not like...he can get somebody else

 

My responsibility is to myself, my machine, and my pax. If I'm fatigued then I fail all those responsibilities, and hence I am not really in COMMAND of anything now am I?

[Hiller Highwater]

I totally agree with Zazu. I'm in charge of myself and my machine when I'm PIC. I do not need somebody telling me I don't know what's good for me so they need to take care of it for me (referring to people saying we need to lower all the limits on flight and duty time I mean).

 

For one thing, some jobs are so fun you can work every single hour of the day and feel great. Some suck all the time and are only fun on rare ocassions. I worked EMS once for a while and that was something that was truly painful. But it wasn't because of the flying, it was because of the sitting around! I'm telling you it is far more fatiguing to stand by waiting to do a medevac than it is slinging drills at 10,000 feet +35! All the coffee, all the whinging about pay and rotation and benfits and pensions. 8 hours duty a day is all anyone should be expected to put up with doing that job. I'm serious.

 

How about fighting fires when they're really rolling? 8 hrs flight with 14 hrs duty everyday forever and you'll end your career a happy man.

[helicopterjim]

Stop it! Making sense does not fit with this thread!

 

 

Wow!...now this is interesting. Agree with HV 100 percent. But I don't like to type that much so here's my view:

 

1) I am a pilot

2) That would make me a Pilot in COMMAND

3) If I get tired...I go to sleep.

4) If customer does not like...he can get somebody else

5) If boss does not like...he can get somebody else

 

My responsibility is to myself, my machine, and my pax. If I'm fatigued then I fail all those responsibilities, and hence I am not really in COMMAND of anything now am I?

[Zazu]

Sorry for that Jim. I'll shut-up now and go to work...tommorow. Fly Safe!

[kiefk]

Hi All, I have enjoyed reading through all your thoughts whilst sat in a exploration camp in NW BC.

 

I have only been in the Industry in Canada now for 18 months............but have flying experience from various other parts of the world. My hopefully constructive views are:

 

1. 42 days of 14hrs on duty (whether flying or not) is too long

 

2. We are, as a professional group of people (pilot & ame), vastly under appreciated both financially and professionally

[on a recent job in a remote area as an unsupported VFR pilot I was the lowest paid person in camp!]

3. If customers NEED helicopter support they will pay for it.........but COMPANIES undersell their services to compete!?

[Customers like safe, professional service and if it cost a little more they will add it to the already huge budget. Customers WILL pay drill & enviro companies huge amounts for their services and even standby fees for unproductive days - yet we as an industry (company and individuals) are expected to fly whatever. I have lost count this season the times I have been expected to break the rules and regulations - because the other company / pilot did]

4. Customers need educating in what is safely achievable and what a realistic cost of that service is....Helicopter companies are not the ones in control of their operations the CUSTOMER is?? Imagine a Drill foreman being expected to not have overall control of his rig!!??

Unless the customer is made aware of the behind the scenes problem he is causing the operator & pilot their demands will remain unchanged...

 

5. PIC to me stands for Person In Control, not Command. Yes I can constructively point out to the customer and my employer the rules and regulations and why I feel uneasy with the current situation. And as Zazu has already posted I could refuse and they get another pilot/company - BUT it has been made plainly clear to me that:

 

"nobody likes a whiner" legitimate grievance or not and "it's a small industry"

 

I hope that this is constructive and I have not been too 'whiney' and look forward to reading more of your views too.

 

As an Industry we must evolve and not just live in the past of what we 'used' to do.........Chart and Stopwatch or GPS, Night NVG or Night, Sat Tracking & Phone or Hope the Aircraft returns when it planned to, Remote fuel bowser farm or more barrels.

Why make life harder than it needs to be......

[Phil Croucher]

"Dr. Belenky was asked point-blank if a pilot could work a 14-hr duty day indefinitely as long as he had opportunity for 8 hours of sleep each night. He was unequivocal in his response - "yes" he said."

 

Well, doctor or not, he is talking out of his proverbial. Chronic fatigue is a mental thing - you can have 21 days of exactly the same sleep, in the same bed with the same breakfast, crappy Alberta Fire Service lunch on the same fire, but you will still never want to see a helicopter again for the rest of your life - that is not a good position from which to go flying!

 

And believe me, you want to keep as far away from EASA as possible! A lot of their rules came from the UK, and the document that set UK's rules up was written under the aegis of Douglas Bader who hadn't the slightest clue about commercial operations.

 

I still maintain what I said in my previous post - aside from making sure you do get the days off you anticipate, the Canadian system works reasonably well for the type of place it is, and the type of people in it doing the work they have to do. It's a credit to those people that fatigue accidents are relatively few (at least, I don't hear of them in my present location).

 

Phil

[helicopterjim]

I still maintain what I said in my previous post - aside from making sure you do get the days off you anticipate, the Canadian system works reasonably well for the type of place it is, and the type of people in it doing the work they have to do. It's a credit to those people that fatigue accidents are relatively few (at least, I don't hear of them in my present location).

 

Phil

 

 

Thank you Phil! Well said!

 

P.S. Douglas Bader is a hero - but a WAR hero. You are absolutely right! We are not at war ....