Tsb Aviation Investigation Report A12W0031

[MEOB]

So he lied about his experience. I get a good laugh at this as everyone gets so excited about how many hours a pilot has or hours on the line or fire or what not. If this particular pilot did any training ( apparently 2.5 hours )with the company with a competent training pilot they would know his abilities and skill level within the first flight. I've been out training with guys that had a résumé that would impress the best in the industry with references to back it and with in the first take off I'd call bullshit. Maybe the previous employer was trying to get rid of them. You can have a 6000 hour pilot that still can't think. You can teach a monkey to fly but not think. I've only ever kept track of total hours and hours on type. I've been asked many times well how much long line time do you have? Response was lots don't know how much but I can do it. Don't believe me let's go flying and you tell me how many hours I may or may not have. I never got off on stating how much time I have accumulated who gives a ####. The industry is starting to go in the direction that as long as you have some kind of paper work behind you to back you it's good enough. Instead of the common sense approach of let's go for a ride and see if you capable of the asked task. I didn't read the report and have no idea of what the cause of the accident was, if it was pilot error or something else. But just hate when people start harping on hours. I've been out with 1000 hour pilots that I would feel safer with than some of the 6-7000 hour guys that haven't improved there skills since the 500 hour mark they just stalled!

[highbladedown]

I worked with this operator some 10 years ago and based on the threads nothing has really changed. I've been in the industry for 40-years and I really did not like how the young upcoming pilots were treated working for this organization, I always thought us old farts were there to help the young pilots - mentor these young folks. But it wasn't possible - too much frustration, don't get me wrong - all the crews were great - leadership was lacking.

 

Have a GREAT day all - fly safe.

 

hbd

[Test Pilot]

This other one was not that long ago

 

Power Loss

Kananaskis Mountain Helicopters Ltd.

Bell 206B Helicopter C-GFQZ

Cline River Heliport (CCR5), Alberta

12 August 2007

 

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/2007/a07w0150/a07w0150.asp

 

both of them showing company dysfunctions ...

I worked for this operator and I was the PIC of this particular accident. I also lobbied TC to shut this guy down well after my unscheduled landing (decal/swim). I saw the headline and immediately felt my heart sank ..... called TC and was very unprofessional to say the least........some of you old boys would have been proud. The old owner after a long period of enhanced monitoring eventually lost his OC (fined to death). I would like to RUN into him in a bar someday. I knew there were no tech records but just found out NO DATA plate on the engine on my machine FQZ. I didn't have much time but had most of my mountain experience with this company with a different pilot than the owner. I still feel that that instruction and egress training as well as all my other training seriously helped me and that terrified woman that day ( I still remember her drowning upside down in there) I feel for this young pilots family. More than you know. At times I felt like going out there and shutting him down myself. I knew this was going to happen and I almost wanted to puke when I heard this news. I don't understand TC anymore......I have had my FAA for awhile now and they seem to be able to make decisions asap and have firm policy. The grey-book down there at TC must be thicker than the CARS. I'm still waiting for return phone calls from months, weeks and days ago regarding SMS and other information. I don't want to beat up Transport but the FAA called me in 4.5 hours up near Ft Smith after my last inquirery and I'm Canadian eh ! I don't want to hear about these type of operator again and I hope the new owners of KMH are of a much higher caliber than the previous owner.....if not may the horns be loud and the young buckeroos reactions be swift.......get her on the ground skids down girls.

RIP Pilot

[Freewheel]

So he lied about his experience. I get a good laugh at this as everyone gets so excited about how many hours a pilot has or hours on the line or fire or what not. If this particular pilot did any training ( apparently 2.5 hours )with the company with a competent training pilot they would know his abilities and skill level within the first flight. I've been out training with guys that had a résumé that would impress the best in the industry with references to back it and with in the first take off I'd call bullshit. Maybe the previous employer was trying to get rid of them. You can have a 6000 hour pilot that still can't think. You can teach a monkey to fly but not think. I've only ever kept track of total hours and hours on type. I've been asked many times well how much long line time do you have? Response was lots don't know how much but I can do it. Don't believe me let's go flying and you tell me how many hours I may or may not have. I never got off on stating how much time I have accumulated who gives a ####. The industry is starting to go in the direction that as long as you have some kind of paper work behind you to back you it's good enough. Instead of the common sense approach of let's go for a ride and see if you capable of the asked task. I didn't read the report and have no idea of what the cause of the accident was, if it was pilot error or something else. But just hate when people start harping on hours. I've been out with 1000 hour pilots that I would feel safer with than some of the 6-7000 hour guys that haven't improved there skills since the 500 hour mark they just stalled!

I'm not condoning lying about your experience, but you are right that total number if hours rarely tells the whole story. On a side note I wonder which method the pilot, TC And TSB used to calculate his total experience:

1) ICAO - start to shutdown

2) First lift off to last lift off - as per recent guidance fromTC in flight time vs air time forum; or did they use:

3) Flight Time equals Air Time for skid equipped helicopters - as per statement in many COM's ( and placed there by TC)-this method has been acknowledged as being incorrect by TC

 

I find it even more amusing that we spend so much time worrying about a pilots total time, when it's obvious that widespread confusion exists at TC and industry wide as to how a pilot should even calcate his flight time. I think a jury in civil litigation would find this fact to be very interesting to say the least. As a pilot I'd be making **** sure that TC was named in that same lawsuit (if the issue came up).

How can you comment on a pilots experience if you can't even consistently explain to the industry how logging flight time should be done!

[Freewheel]

I'm not condoning lying about your experience, but you are right that total number if hours rarely tells the whole story. On a side note I wonder which method the pilot, TC And TSB used to calculate his total experience:

1) ICAO - start to shutdown

2) First lift off to last landing - as per recent guidance fromTC in flight time vs air time forum; or did they use:

3) Flight Time equals Air Time for skid equipped helicopters - as per statement in many COM's ( and placed there by TC)-this method has been acknowledged as being incorrect by TC

 

I find it even more amusing that we spend so much time worrying about a pilots total time, when it's obvious that widespread confusion exists at TC and industry wide as to how a pilot should even calcate his flight time. I think a jury in civil litigation would find this fact to be very interesting to say the least. As a pilot I'd be making **** sure that TC was named in that same lawsuit (if the issue came up).

How can you comment on a pilots experience if you can't even consistently explain to the industry how logging flight time should be done!

 

Sorry number 2) should say first lift off to last landing...I made the correction above

[helicopterjim]

On a side note I wonder which method the pilot, TC And TSB used to calculate his total experience: 1) ICAO - start to shutdown 2) First lift off to last lift off - as per recent guidance fromTC in flight time vs air time forum; or did they use: 3) Flight Time equals Air Time for skid equipped helicopters - as per statement in many COM's ( and placed there by TC)-this method has been acknowledged as being incorrect by TC I find it even more amusing that we spend so much time worrying about a pilots total time, when it's obvious that widespread confusion exists at TC and industry wide as to how a pilot should even calcate his flight time. I think a jury in civil litigation would find this fact to be very interesting to say the least.

 

If you are really wondering about the trivial differences in time that would make then I suggest you go to the part of the forum dedicated to silly comments regarding Flight Time vs Air Time ......... http://forums.verticalmag.com/index.php?showtopic=19518

[Freewheel]

I am sorry...but it seems quite relevant in this case...or any case where a pilots hours are questioned. Maybe the discrepancies in the pilots log book and what he reported stem from his uncertainty on how to log...we can't ask him can we?

I recently trained a very experienced pilot who didn't think it was that all that trivial. Once we were done reviewing all the recent guidance material from TC he admitted that he had always used air time in his flight time limits calculations. This was based on what he had been trained (as per COM) that flight time equals air time.

 

At that point he realized (and admitted he had been in non-compliance of the CARs flight time limits on numerous occasions (and very liable in the event of an accident). There is no doubt in my mind that thia pilot felt he was logging correctly.

 

He told stories of reaching flight time limits moving crews "out west" on 2 to 3 week tours. he was logging 180-190 hours billing time (which was actually closer to the definition of flight time than air time) and air time to calculate his flight time limits." Needless to say he also realized (and stated) that under the recent guidance we have received from TC...he would be required to be replaced earlier and it would vist him 1800.00 per tour. This was not trivial to him one bit!

 

I am sure his company also appreciated that they are not required to replace him as often as some other companies would(saving them considerably).

 

By the way I have discussed this with and trained

Numerous pilots over the years who have told similar stories...this is contrary to what we are being told and is directly related to $$$$, so I don't see it as trivial either.

 

 

 

[hybrid]

Yup, its as clear as mud isn't it?

[Freewheel]

In my experience, those who trivialize this issue don't have a clear understanding of the regulatory requirements themselves or know they operate within a. "Grey area" and like the confusion thAt exists. Why wouldn't they if they can make an extra 1800.00 per tour? Unfortunately, ignorance of the law is not an excuse and the courts fon't make allowances for Grey areas in the regulatins. So in the event of an accident, your fate may lie in the hands of the TC inspector who will be called as an expert witness in any lawsuit. Considering their interpretations vary significantly, IMHO that will be a crap shoot.

 

Which method of calculating flight time do you use Jim?

[PedalJam]

So he lied about his experience. I get a good laugh at this as everyone gets so excited about how many hours a pilot has or hours on the line or fire or what not. If this particular pilot did any training ( apparently 2.5 hours )with the company with a competent training pilot they would know his abilities and skill level within the first flight. I've been out training with guys that had a résumé that would impress the best in the industry with references to back it and with in the first take off I'd call bullshit. Maybe the previous employer was trying to get rid of them. You can have a 6000 hour pilot that still can't think. You can teach a monkey to fly but not think. I've only ever kept track of total hours and hours on type. I've been asked many times well how much long line time do you have? Response was lots don't know how much but I can do it. Don't believe me let's go flying and you tell me how many hours I may or may not have. I never got off on stating how much time I have accumulated who gives a ####. The industry is starting to go in the direction that as long as you have some kind of paper work behind you to back you it's good enough. Instead of the common sense approach of let's go for a ride and see if you capable of the asked task. I didn't read the report and have no idea of what the cause of the accident was, if it was pilot error or something else. But just hate when people start harping on hours. I've been out with 1000 hour pilots that I would feel safer with than some of the 6-7000 hour guys that haven't improved there skills since the 500 hour mark they just stalled!

Agreed , hours of experience mean nothing .....

If you have not learnt anything from your experiences .

 

Fly Safe