Work Permit Changes

[Canadian Expatriate]

It's about bloody time. Logical extensions of arguements against a 'Canadian First' policy would have us fling the doors open to anyone and you where that will spiral ends....we'll all make $5.00/hr, no benefits. Just show up with your logbook and a smile  .

 

2open100%, you wrote this but I don't think you realize that this is what happens if anyone accepts the wages. Canadians can do the same if they wish.

 

Your argument is to limit choice, period. The terminology you used when refering to how things operate overseas suggests that you've been there. Sour grapes about having 'trained' your replacement and having to return to the Great White North perhaps?

 

It's a global marketplace these days. The successful nations are embracing this and the failing nations are the ones that artificially try to prop up inefficient ways of doing things. It just costs more in the end. Lack of meaningful competition breeds complacency and further inefficiency. Everybody loses.

 

Wouldn't it be ironic if the backlash of getting 34 work visas cancelled to make more work for Canadians brought the 100+ pilots (that I'm aware of) back. You'd get some competition then.

[Helilog56]

How typical. Attack the poster and ignore the ideas. Welcome whom ever you like. Thats your perogative. However, you don't need to question my background, employment or experience. They are rather irrelavent to the discussion.

Canadian crews operate overseas simply because we bring a level of expertise demanded by the client or host country. We then spend heaps of $$ training nationals and ourselves out of a job.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:down: And you consider your "ideas" not worthy of some kind of harsh retort. Actually with your kind of attitude,( which reminds me alot of the "peashooter mentality"), is precisely the kind of thing that would hinder a person seeking employment or trying to maintain it within this (or any other) industry. And yes, when one paints that big of a picture of the industry as a whole, I would find your background, employment and experience quite relavent.

[2open100%]

Seems I'm not the only one up early this morning!

Heligypsy- Firstly, Canadians working overseas do not deplete us of pilots to such an extent that we need to bring in foreign talent. There are many talented under-employed folks right here but lots of operators who find it expiditious to hire ready made talent from elsewhere. Can't blame the operators but I would support any initiative that helps give our own guys and gals a leg up. I can't understand how any Canadian wouldn't. Maybe thats why we're adrift and rudderless in this country

There must be some intrinsic value to citizenship besides a good health plan.

With respect to the door swinging both ways, well try and get a job in any EU country or the US with your TC License and no passport. This is not a hypocritical position but one that says a country's professional qualifications and cadre are worth something. Secondly and I repeat, Canadian crews operate overseas where the infrastructure and expertise is not available to train home grown pilots. Thats about the only reason you'll see Canadians working overseas. Find out where we are working and you'll soon find that to be self evident. We're not in the south of France thats for sure.

Canadian Expat : Like poster's before you, the 'sour grapes' comment and speculation as to my employment have little to do with the arguement. It's a nasty trait on this forum. Perhaps anonimity is condusive to poor debating?

To the point;

It is easier for someone from a developing country to accept a low wage than it is for a Canadian. 1000$/month is good money in Bangalore. Would it keep food on your plate and you're kid in college? Not likely. Logically extending your arguement would see wages tumbling as everyone scrambled for the bottom of the barrel. Talk to any truck driver about this.

The globalized market place has seen winners and losers. Not all the winners have embraced it and not all the losers have rejected it. It will only be a level playing field when standards, laws, etc become harmonized amongst all the players. They are not...not by any stretch. Until then globalization will be a boon to the entrepenuer and pox on the workers. Think about it for a minute. Should a man screwing radiators into chevy's be able to make a living wage or should he be compelled to accept ....oh lets say Mexican wages...In the name of Globalization of course.

I like your idea of cancelling 34 work visas. Perhaps it would raise the wages for our own people, open up some rungs at the bottom, convince an operator or two to send a younger pilot on that long line course. Hmmm, I think your on to something there!

[2open100%]

Ideas are worthy of consideration and rebuttal. I would hope 'harsh retort' would be the refuge of last resort or desperation.

How do you speculate on my 'attitute' about an industry. I merely pointed out one aspect that I feel is lacking. Debate that, not my supposed 'attitude' .

In case you miss the gist of my arguement, I feel that, as an industry, we should provide opputunity for our own before going offshore. I still can't see what's wrong with that!

[Skids Up]

Ahhhh, The Great Canadian Dream

 

Get a licence and demand the best of jobs, with the highest pay. Why earn the position when you can have the government force it.

 

Can't help but wonder if some of the "Canadian Only" comments would change, if these individuals were signing all the cheques and laying awake at night wondering where the hours to pay for it all, were going to come from...

 

Most operators/owners have earned the right to hire who they want, not who they are forced to. :down:

 

And I believe in this great country of ours, that any individual that wants to, can start his own business and hire who he wants.

 

Don't you just love a free country? :up:

 

PS I'm not an operator, nor an owner. But I do respect what they have done to get where they are, because if I wanted the headaches, I could do the same.

[Canadian Expatriate]

The argument isn't making sense. You want to get rid of the work permits because guys from developing countries can accept lower wages. Then you say that the Canadians are over in these developing countries because they don't have their own skilled people. So which is it? Are they ou there or not?

 

If these guys are from developed countries then they will have the same cost of living responsibilities as you and won't have any incentive to push down wages. So again, the only objection is that they are a better product than the Canadians that are out of work. Is that it?

 

You say you like the idea of cancelling the work visas but ignores the other half of what I said. Much more than that many Canadians are actively working abroad. Can't have it both ways, or you shouldn't.

 

All these arguments from 2open100% and Peashooter claim that all canadian helicopter companies are evil and are out blackballing all the good hardworking helicopter pilots for no good reason. I know at least one guy who has voiced this opinion here on the forum. He figures he has been kept unemployed by this evil mafia of helicopter owners and chief pilots. I interviewed him about 3 years ago. He flew ok but he was incredibly abrasive to anyone he met who wasn't in a position to fire/hire him, to the point of being hated by these people. If that is the level of his people skills, what will he do to the customers/engineers/ground staff/admin staff? On my recommendation he didn't get hired, and rightly so. I'd happily hire an Aussie or a Kiwi or a Brit, or anyone who was likely a better employee, in his place. It's not about nationality, it's about being the best man.

[Helilog56]

Ahhhh, The Great Canadian Dream

 

Get a licence and demand the best of jobs, with the highest pay.    Why earn the position when you can have the government force it.

 

And I believe in this great country of ours, that any individual that wants to, can start his own business and hire who he wants.

 

Don't you just love a free country?  :up

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

:up: Skids Up....You can come fly our kites anytime....That kind of thinking is more of what is needed.... :up:

[2open100%]

QUOTE: Get a licence and demand the best of jobs, with the highest pay. Why earn the position when you can have the government force it.

 

Your right, we should let guys and gals hand over their hard earned dollars to a Canadian flight school, enriching a Canadian operator then have them line up behind someone on a work permit who'll accept a lower wage. Yep, thats how to build a cadre of professional pilots let alone a strong middle class.

 

QUOTE: Can't help but wonder if some of the "Canadian Only" comments would change, if these individuals were signing all the cheques and laying awake at night wondering where the hours to pay for it all, were going to come from...

 

Right, operators should be allowed to ....oh let say employ pilots from China on work visas who will work for half what a Canadian pilot would. Hey...lets do the same with doctors ..no more paying these guys 140k/yr...why there are lots of third world trained doctors we could briing over on work visas, Our doctors will just have to 'adjust' to the 'new reality'...Right On! :down:

 

QUOTE: The argument isn't making sense. You want to get rid of the work permits because guys from developing countries can accept lower wages. Then you say that the Canadians are over in these developing countries because they don't have their own skilled people. So which is it? Are they ou there or not?

 

It makes perfect sense when you realise that many developing countries have a large cadre of pilots compliments of an active military(ie: former Soviet republics) And there are those developing countries with none or little in the way of general aviation expertise.(ie: Papua New Guinea) It is the latter where our pilots operate. We are not taking jobs from locals as there are no local pilots to take jobs from! I don't think this too hard to understand.

 

QUOTE:If these guys are from developed countries then they will have the same cost of living responsibilities as you and won't have any incentive to push down wages. So again, the only objection is that they are a better product than the Canadians that are out of work. Is that it?

 

Call it good old fashioned patriotism but I stand by opputunity for Canadians first. Full Stop. Your welcome to come, go through the hoops, convert your qualifications and be on equal footing but to just pitch up on a work permit ahead of our own? Can say I'd never support that.

 

QUOTE:(My arguements say) all canadian helicopter companies are evil and are out blackballing all the good hardworking helicopter pilots for no good reason

 

There I go getting words crammed into my mouth again! Maybe better just to keep it closed I merely pointed out one aspect that the industry has been slow to develop. Thats all, no blanket accusations like that were ever made.

[Helilog56]

Ideas are worthy of consideration and rebuttal. I would hope 'harsh retort' would be the refuge of last resort or desperation.

How do you speculate on my 'attitute' about an industry. I merely pointed out one aspect that I feel is lacking. Debate that, not my supposed 'attitude' .

In case you miss the gist of my arguement, I feel that, as an industry, we should provide opputunity for our own before going offshore. I still can't see what's wrong with that!

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This again along with your original statement..."our industry is notorious for it's lack of honesty and integrity in dealing with employees"....talk about making a point with desperation and attitude.... :down:

[jetbox]

Looks like Peeshooter found a way to get back in the forum!

 

Sorry but you're way off on this one again!

 

Bottom line: The pool of Canadian experienced pilots is fairly high.

The demand for Canadian experienced pilots is much higher. There aren't enough experienced pilots to fill the void. There isn't one experienced pilot in Canada that can't find a job. No way, no how!

Except: guys like Peeshooter who's personality is so distorted, he's belongs in an asylum, or guys that just can't fly worth a #### and are a menace to themselves and anyone that is within a 5 mile radius.

 

Let's take it a step further: If you needed a heart transplant and you had your pick of two surgeons, a Canadian that is a complete idiot and couldn't find his own a**hole, let alone know how to perform surgery, or, a foreign surgon with tons of experience swaping hearts with a 100% success rate. Wich one do you pick?

What you're suggesting is that the government should force us to pick the Canadian eventhough he's incompetent, rather than the foreign surgeon who can do the job with his eyes closed. Sorry, no dice!

 

The only Canadian pilots with 1500 hrs or more that can't find jobs are exactly the kinds of pilots that shouldn't be flying in the first place. The only reason foreign pilots find work in Canada is because the demand is there.

Don't get me wrong, I would much prefer to give a Canadian 100hr wonder a kick at the can rather than give the job to a foreigner but before that can happen, you need to do something about those supposed "consultants" that conviced oil and mining companies that young inexperienced pilots are unsafe. If our customers can't fly with 100hrs pilots, how can we hire them?

 

And another thing, I've never heard of any foreign pilot working in Canada for less money than a comparable Canadian. Your arguments are absolutely ludicrous! :down: