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Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook


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"Sure, use air-time for A/F time, but if the client is paying for it I will be logging it." Really...   So what your saying is a good few hundred hours of your 20k is actually with the skids on

Can't find the amendment to CARs for definition of helicopter flight time so do we revert back to logging air time?       General Aviation Policy Letter (GAPL) No. 2005-02   Reference Canadian

Twiddling your thumbs too : )

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3 hours ago, robottxt said:

Some clients are wise to pilots on commission based flight pay over billing.   Aircraft logbook must match billing for some clients.  

You are the first person to state what I have said from the beginning of this tirade, that the tech log should indicate what is being billed, as the actual cost to the operator.

When I was auditing an operator on behalf of the Federal Government, I would check the Journey, and Air frame/ Engine log books entries to see if they all matched what was being billed the customer. The worst operators to try changing times and over billing are the ones flying fires. Every client who has a long or short term contract has the right to see the companies log books. 

The industry as whole is it's own worst enemy by keeping rates so low and undercutting each other.  

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59 minutes ago, Blackmac said:

You are the first person to state what I have said from the beginning of this tirade, that the tech log should indicate what is being billed, as the actual cost to the operator.

When I was auditing an operator on behalf of the Federal Government, I would check the Journey, and Air frame/ Engine log books entries to see if they all matched what was being billed the customer. The worst operators to try changing times and over billing are the ones flying fires. Every client who has a long or short term contract has the right to see the companies log books. 

The industry as whole is it's own worst enemy by keeping rates so low and undercutting each other.  

So if your on 4 hour minimums & only fly 1 hour you can’t invoice 4 hours?

Invoices are not legislated, aircraft & pilot flight times are. The tech log, pilots log book & journey log should all match perfectly, invoicing is irrelevant. The question is which time does a pilot enter into their logbook, & after 65 pages I’m still no wiser. I guess I’ll just put in whatever time the Chief Pilot of the company says to & leave it at that.

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15 hours ago, Heliduck said:

 after 65 pages I’m still no wiser. 

Yet the HAC Communique states this confusion is recent. 

http://www.naylornetwork.com/hcp-nwl/articles/index.asp?aid=496313&issueID=65485

everyone knows this debate has been going on for decades

By my count this is the 3rd differing interpretation to be offered by a 3rd TC Director of Standards. All are posted in this forum.

One interpretation is on Page 1 and was released in 2005 (GAPL 2005-02) by Director of Standards Manzur Huq

In 2011, Director Jacqueline Booth provided an interpretation. This interpretation was also validated in 2013 by Regional Director Yves Lemieux.

Now the December 2017 interpretation from Cheif of Standards Deb Mathews and Director of Standards Rober Sincennes. Back to Flight Time = Air Time (which is the interpretation TC circulated in a generic COM template in the 90s)

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Funny you guys should mention what you bill the client.  I recently flew an R22 with a new collective hobbs, which measures air time, instead of the usual R22 hobbs that works off the oil light and therefore measures engine time.

The next day I noticed that they had added a .1 to my bill. :(

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23 hours ago, Heliduck said:

So if your on 4 hour minimums & only fly 1 hour you can’t invoice 4 hours?

Invoices are not legislated, aircraft & pilot flight times are. The tech log, pilots log book & journey log should all match perfectly, invoicing is irrelevant. The question is which time does a pilot enter into their logbook, & after 65 pages I’m still no wiser. I guess I’ll just put in whatever time the Chief Pilot of the company says to & leave it at that.

Oh,,, sweet summer child, so innocent. 

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On 4/21/2018 at 5:10 PM, Heliduck said:

So if your on 4 hour minimums & only fly 1 hour you can’t invoice 4 hours?

Invoices are not legislated, aircraft & pilot flight times are. The tech log, pilots log book & journey log should all match perfectly, invoicing is irrelevant. The question is which time does a pilot enter into their logbook, & after 65 pages I’m still no wiser. I guess I’ll just put in whatever time the Chief Pilot of the company says to & leave it at that.

CLIENT: Calling a helicopter company for rates on a helicopter for a job he want's to do. You automatically ask for what type of work, etc.

Operator: Suggests a B407 fully equipped for the job with a minimum of 4hrs/day, not including fuel costs, airport charges applicable crew costs.

CLIENT: Say's I'm not sure how long I will need the helicopter, would it be allright to average the 4hrs/day over the period of the contract.

Operator: You agree and accept a purchase order or contract. You also have a Tariff book in your office and send him a copy. (The one you wrote up yesterday.)

 

The hourly rate quoted is invoiced the customer, including whatever charges stated and agreed to in the contract/purchase order.

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4 hours ago, Blackmac said:

CLIENT: Calling a helicopter company for rates on a helicopter for a job he want's to do. You automatically ask for what type of work, etc.

Operator: Suggests a B407 fully equipped for the job with a minimum of 4hrs/day, not including fuel costs, airport charges applicable crew costs.

CLIENT: Say's I'm not sure how long I will need the helicopter, would it be allright to average the 4hrs/day over the period of the contract.

Operator: You agree and accept a purchase order or contract. You also have a Tariff book in your office and send him a copy. (The one you wrote up yesterday.)

 

The hourly rate quoted is invoiced the customer, including whatever charges stated and agreed to in the contract/purchase order.

Then you charge him 4 bucks when he asks for a bottle of water, but do give him a "complimentary" smurf-sized bag of, ugh,...pretzels,....'cause somewhere in the world someone is allergic to peanuts!

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