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Flight Time Vs. Air Time Personal Logbook


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4 hours ago, ramen rider said:

This is just stupid.  

If you guys are having trouble maybe its because "flight" and "air" mean the same thing, since you cannot be "in flight" unless you are "in the air"!

If you're concerned about "engine run time", or "blades spinning time", vs. "skids up to skids down (air) time", then change "flight time" to one of the first two.

Sh*t. You may have just solved everyone’s problem. Make sure you tell every TC inspector in all the regions. The two I talked to both had a different opinion, and actually got in a bit of a dispute about it.

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"Sure, use air-time for A/F time, but if the client is paying for it I will be logging it." Really...   So what your saying is a good few hundred hours of your 20k is actually with the skids on

Can't find the amendment to CARs for definition of helicopter flight time so do we revert back to logging air time?       General Aviation Policy Letter (GAPL) No. 2005-02   Reference Canadian

Twiddling your thumbs too : )

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On 2018-04-16 at 8:42 AM, ramen rider said:

This is just stupid.  

If you guys are having trouble maybe its because "flight" and "air" mean the same thing, since you cannot be "in flight" unless you are "in the air"!

If you're concerned about "engine run time", or "blades spinning time", vs. "skids up to skids down (air) time", then change "flight time" to one of the first two.

But that is not where the trouble lies. The trouble lies in that Canada within the CAR's don't follow ICAO.

And the problem isn't on flights A to B, the problem arises on flights from A to B to C to D to E to F etc without shutting down. One region says one thing, the next region does not agree.

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Which all boils down to the various interpretations of 1 definition in the CARs.

flight time means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight

Following engine start, is a skid equipped helicopter considered to be "moving under its own power" prior to lifting into the hover?

Is the next time a skid equipped helicopter touches the ground considered "the end of the flight"?

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I think perhaps the definition needed is along the lines of:

Flight Time means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight and, for the purpose of tracking fight duty, includes any time that the pilot is required to be at the controls of the aircraft with the engines running for the purpose of conducting a flight.

This would cover your A to B flights, as well as your A to B to C to D flights, while also satisfying the spirit of the Flight Duty limits, while avoiding confusion regarding ground runs, etc where the a/c was not intended to leave the ground.

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4 hours ago, Bif said:

I think perhaps the definition needed is along the lines of:

Flight Time means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight and, for the purpose of tracking fight duty, includes any time that the pilot is required to be at the controls of the aircraft with the engines running for the purpose of conducting a flight.

This would cover your A to B flights, as well as your A to B to C to D flights, while also satisfying the spirit of the Flight Duty limits, while avoiding confusion regarding ground runs, etc where the a/c was not intended to leave the ground.

Hmm, sounds like you guys need what truckers got!  A computer in the cockpit that automatically changes your duty status as per the regulations.

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2 hours ago, ramen rider said:

Hmm, sounds like you guys need what truckers got!  A computer in the cockpit that automatically changes your duty status as per the regulations.

Or...a governing body that actually writes rules that are clear, concise and applicable to all parties that are intended to follow said rules. 

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1 hour ago, R0T0R said:

Or...a governing body that actually writes rules that are clear, concise and applicable to all parties that are intended to follow said rules. 

That's just it, a trucker style logbook computer in the helicopter will be controlled by those who write the rulebook so there's no "interpretation" of "unclear"rules.  The machine just automatically changes your log status when you start the engine, move, stop, etc. as per said rules.

You the pilot or operator no longer have to worry if you are following the rules correctly or not, because the computer is doing it all!

 

Truckers no longer have to worry about incorrectly filling out their logbooks and if aviation joined the 21st Century, neither would you!

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49 minutes ago, ramen rider said:

That's just it, a trucker style logbook computer in the helicopter will be controlled by those who write the rulebook so there's no "interpretation" of "unclear"rules.  The machine just automatically changes your log status when you start the engine, move, stop, etc. as per said rules.

You the pilot or operator no longer have to worry if you are following the rules correctly or not, because the computer is doing it all!

 

Truckers no longer have to worry about incorrectly filling out their logbooks and if aviation joined the 21st Century, neither would you!

But then how will i over charge #### clients?

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7 hours ago, ramen rider said:

That's just it, a trucker style logbook computer in the helicopter will be controlled by those who write the rulebook so there's no "interpretation" of "unclear"rules.  The machine just automatically changes your log status when you start the engine, move, stop, etc. as per said rules.

You the pilot or operator no longer have to worry if you are following the rules correctly or not, because the computer is doing it all!

 

Truckers no longer have to worry about incorrectly filling out their logbooks and if aviation joined the 21st Century, neither would you!

“Those who wrote the rules” would need to understand how the rules they wrote apply to Helicopters first. They would also need to enforce flight time consistently across all rules that uses the term. Currently that doesn’t seem to be the case. Hence the discussions with HAC and their decisions not to enforce their own rules.

There are many  TC approved devices out there to record “air time”, unfortunately many of them were certified by TC  to use different methods of calculating air time....some calculate only time in the air, but others calculate air time while the aircraft is on the ground running. This is not air time by definition and pilots using these figures are entering inflated air time in aircraft records. This is very costly, but also could result in torque checks and other special inspections being conducted before the manufacturers minimum air time (as stated in their maintenance procedures).

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3 hours ago, Freewheel said:

“Those who wrote the rules” would need to understand how the rules they wrote apply to Helicopters first. They would also need to enforce flight time consistently across all rules that uses the term. Currently that doesn’t seem to be the case. Hence the discussions with HAC and their decisions not to enforce their own rules.

There are many  TC approved devices out there to record “air time”, unfortunately many of them were certified by TC  to use different methods of calculating air time....some calculate only time in the air, but others calculate air time while the aircraft is on the ground running. This is not air time by definition and pilots using these figures are entering inflated air time in aircraft records. This is very costly, but also could result in torque checks and other special inspections being conducted before the manufacturers minimum air time (as stated in their maintenance procedures).

Well then, I guess you're ******!

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