Definition Of "flight Time"?

[Blackmac]

This is an intersesting discussion, but can certainly get carried away.

 

My point was as such: An "hourly rate" as defined by the operator for that a/c is what he charges the customer and what goes against the hourly airframe time of that a/c. Should TC wish to interpret that in any other fashion, I would say they are full of BS.

 

If there is a contract between to parties that specify other charges, that is a different story.

 

On a casual charter rate, is what I was talking about.

 

I used the the "Air Charter Conditions" from PWGSC that were invoked after de-regulation as an explanation that a series of continous flights with numerous take-offs and landings was covered as one flight and charged accordingly. This was considered "air time" and logged as such.

 

You or anybody else will kindly explain to me how you justify any other scenario.

 

You will also try and explain why you should profit on top of profit that is already included in your hourly rate, by lowering the cost against the airframe.

 

It's against my principals and at least one other person on this site, that understands what I am talking about.

 

Because a few operators do it , doesn't make right.

 

For the few of you that are getting charged via the Hobbs Meter or so,called flight time, have been getting screwed for years. That is because to many flight schools are there to pick up the costs that would otherwise be charged to members of the flying club.

 

Do not try and jusify being dishonest.

 

IMHO, Cheers Don

 

PS: The "Air Charter Conditions" became part of PWGSC contracts and Standing Offer's to have some understanding of who was going to do what as the tariff regulations that had been inforce were no longer valid. Some operators have habit of trying to justify charges to a customer by saying that the charges are in accordance with there tariff on file at the main office. One thing they don't tell you is that they can change it any time they want.

Unless the said tariff forms part of the contract between the two parties, it's not worth the paper it is written on.

 

So, if there is a conflict and it is major, see you in court.

[Klipper]

This is an intersesting discussion, but can certainly get carried away.

 

My point was as such: An "hourly rate" as defined by the operator for that a/c is what he charges the customer and what goes against the hourly airframe time of that a/c. Should TC wish to interpret that in any other fashion, I would say they are full of BS.

 

If there is a contract between to parties that specify other charges, that is a different story.

 

On a casual charter rate, is what I was talking about.

 

I used the the "Air Charter Conditions" from PWGSC that were invoked after de-regulation as an explanation that a series of continous flights with numerous take-offs and landings was covered as one flight and charged accordingly. This was considered "air time" and logged as such.

 

You or anybody else will kindly explain to me how you justify any other scenario.

 

You will also try and explain why you should profit on top of profit that is already included in your hourly rate, by lowering the cost against the airframe.

 

It's against my principals and at least one other person on this site, that understands what I am talking about.

 

Because a few operators do it , doesn't make right.

 

For the few of you that are getting charged  via the Hobbs Meter or so,called flight time, have been getting screwed for years. That is because to many flight schools are there to pick up the costs that would otherwise be charged to members of the flying club.

 

Do not try and jusify being dishonest.

 

IMHO, Cheers Don

 

PS: The "Air Charter Conditions" became part of PWGSC contracts and Standing Offer's to have some understanding of who was going to do what as the tariff regulations that had been inforce were no longer valid. Some operators have habit of trying to justify charges to a customer by saying that the charges are in accordance  with there tariff on file at the main office. One thing they don't tell you is that they can change it any time they want.

Unless the said tariff forms part of the contract between the two parties, it's not worth the paper it is written on.

 

So, if there is a conflict and it is major, see you in court.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

The point is Blackmac that it is not airtime it is flight time. If you wish to put flight time against the components of your aircraft feel free. Maybe the confusion is that you don't land let someone out and take off again. We idle on the ground for up to 5 mins at the customers descretion they know the clock is running. To say that we should put this 5 min against our component times is ridiculous, after a day of this it can add up to an hour. You do it your way I will do it mine. Customers agree to pay up to 4 hour mins with some companies why is this not unethical? They tie up our aircraft all day too!

[skyward]

Well Well Well! This topic has sure has drifted from the initial target of tracking time for Flight/Duty limits. I guess that just reflects "Human Factors". If you want my opinion on the extended topic of what the customer is being charged versus what you enter in the logbook is this, This industry is eating itself up do to the oversupply of aircraft and operators. This has led to the "dog eat dog" syndome that has contibuted to creative book keeping by way of trying to deliver a service and still make a buck. The easy way out is to imply to the client that you are only being charged for airtime, when in fact you are being charged for the time the engine is running. If this is not the case you then tell them if they do not agree with this format of billing, you will charge them minimums (4.0hrs). Like a previous member stated, the actual "Air Time" charges for a 206 would be approx. $1,200/hr. (reality rate). The point is that all these tactics are just smoke and mirrors used to soften the initial blow of the rate/hr. If honesty were actually to prevail, you would only charge the client for "Air" time and put the same in the A/C journey log. The client still pays for the fuel burn for the entire trip anyways. If the fuel burn cost are an issue and he would prefer the A/C to be shutdown, then provide him with the charges of starting the engine. Let him make the decision as to the billing options. That's my take.

[Blackmac]

In all honesty, I give up. Do what ever you want, but please don't ask for an interpretation of some thing and then try and contradict it to justify what you are doing.

 

If by chance you don't know the difference between flight time and airtime and what bearing daily minimums have on those definitions, what the **** are you doing in the helicopter industry.

 

All these applicable applications are not something invented by me.

 

Pardon my stupidity, but I sure don't know what you are looking for.

 

Cheers, Don

[Klipper]

In all honesty, I give up. Do what ever you want, but please don't ask for an interpretation of some thing and then try and contradict it to justify what you are doing.

 

If by chance you don't know the difference between flight time and airtime and what bearing daily minimums have on those definitions, what the **** are you doing in the helicopter industry.

 

All these applicable applications are not something invented by me.

 

Pardon my stupidity, but I sure don't know what you are looking for.

 

Cheers, Don

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Nasty Nasty :up:

 

I think it is very clear and simple

Airtime skids leave ground, skids return to ground.

Flight Time engine starts to go flying, engine stops at end of flight.

 

Lets leave this alone now.

[justfly]

... Is there such a thing as the "Real" difinition?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Canadian Aviation Regulations (CARs)

Part I - General Provisions

 

Subpart 1 - Interpretation

101.01 (1) In these Regulations:

 

"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing; (temps dans les airs)

 

"flight duty time" - means the period that starts when a flight crew member reports for a flight, or reports as a flight crew member on standby, and finishes at "engines off" or "rotors stopped" at the end of the final flight, except in the case of a flight conducted under Subpart 4 or 5 of Part VII, in which case the period finishes 15 minutes after "engines off" or "rotors stopped" at the end of the final flight, and includes the time required to complete any duties assigned by the air operator or private operator or delegated by the Minister prior to the reporting time and includes the time required to complete aircraft maintenance engineer duties prior to or following a flight; (temps de service de vol)

 

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight; (temps de vol)

 

:hide:

[Blackmac]

Justfly: What can I say????????

 

Don

[jetbox]

"air time" - means, with respect to keeping technical records, the time from the moment an aircraft leaves the surface until it comes into contact with the surface at the next point of landing;

"flight time" - means the time from the moment an aircraft first moves under its own power for the purpose of taking off until the moment it comes to rest at the end of the flight;

 

Looks to me like flight time and air time are by definition exactly the same when it comes to helicopters!

 

What's all the fuss about??

[407 too]

i guess the only time flight time would apply is if it has wheels and has to be operated on the ground like a fixed wing to clear an area before take-off

 

aircraft with skids is tomEHto's toMAtoes

[skyward]

Looks to me like flight time and air time are by definition exactly the same when it comes to helicopters!

 

What's all the fuss about??

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

Jetbox. This is exactly my point. The definition has not been extended for rotary opps. I know for a fact that pilots performing the operation of soil sampling where you fly for 3 min, land and ground idle for 5 min, and so on, are tracking there personal flight time for their 30/90/180/360 day limits based on the SKIDS OFF/SKIDS ON (AIR TIME) only. I have been told by a TC rep (his interpretation) that if the rotors are turning and you are at the controls, then this is indeed FLIGHT TIME! My point again is: Why can't we have establish a "Clear Definition" for R/W opperations.