204/205 Vertical Ref Door Stc

[bleed air]

Increasingly, our medium pilots are being asked by various customers to conduct vertical reference external load ops one minute and then move internal loads, particularly crews, the next. The next question the pilots invariably get is "Can the crew leader ride up front?"

 

Our vertical reference door STC allows the pilot to operate the aircraft from the left seat ONLY while engaged in vertical reference external load operations. Basic A/C certification is for a minimum of "one pilot who shall operate the aircraft from the right crew seat". Additionaly, present company policy is that only company approved aircrew occupies a seat equipped with flight controls.

 

I'd like to know if there are other Bell medium (specifically 204 & 205) operators out there that might have an STC that permits the pilot to remain in the left seat when NOT conducting vertical reference external load ops., such as when conducting crew moves. Anyone have anything like that?

 

Do your pilots switch from one seat to the other depending on the type of operation, i.e., longlining vs. carrying internal loads? (Bearing in mind the basic A/C certification, CARs 702.16,& 722.16, you may want to be careful how you answer this one! You don't want to incriminate yourselves!))

 

As well, I am curious to know what various operator's policies are (and what other pilots' views are) on allowing passengers in either of the front seats when the duals are installed but not conducting vertical reference work. I tend to view this last item as a safety issue of considerable concern.

 

Cheers!

[Helilog56]

What is stated in the flight manuals and co ops manuals, "should be the answer"..........in a perfect world! I have witnessed many, many, pilots over the years do this on a regular basis. Heaven forbid if something should happen, while a crew seat is occupied by an "unqualified" person , or worse, having he/she cause an accident by interference of the flight controls. Explain that to the insurance company, your boss, and the accident investigators after the fact.

 

Now i remember why i like to fly the 64..........."No Passengers".....period....

[VERTICAL REF]

unless someone can show me the exact cars reference or the page in the flight manual, there is nothing that states you cannot have a passanger in the front seat of any aircraft with dual controls installed. if the manual states you have to sit in the right seat for single pilot operation then you should sit there while moving passangers.

 

your ops manual or written / unwritten company policy might be different.

 

there are company's which have a fms that states left seat single pilot operations are approved under all conditons. i have seen american and canadian company's that have the approval - vih being one of them.

 

apply to TC for your approval - it is quite simple. the fms is only one page.

[carholme]

unless someone can show me the exact cars reference or the page in the flight manual, there is nothing that states you cannot have a passanger in the front seat of any aircraft with dual controls installed. if the manual states you have to sit in the right seat for single pilot operation then you should sit there while moving passangers.

 

your ops manual or written / unwritten company policy might be different.

 

there are company's which have a fms that states left seat single pilot operations are approved under all conditons. i have seen american and canadian company's that have the approval - vih being one of them.

 

apply to TC for your approval - it is quite simple. the fms is only one page.

 

 

Gentlemen;

Slightly off topic, but on many of the STCs I have seen, the wire harness which comes from the aircraft to the instruments in the door, is a fixed installation, that is, that the wiring connection is through a cannon plug at the door post or direct to the various co-pilot instrument supplies and secured with various tie wraps etc. I have questioned this many times in the past as the crew doors are designed as "jettisionable". What happens when you have to get rid of the door, to find it hanging by a wire harness?

 

Regards

carholme

[putz]

This has been a issue for me for a long time. I believe from a safty stand point stay in the left seat for crews. Hang out the door all day moving drills and then have to switch seats to go into a small hole to pick up the boys at the end of the day for a ten minute ride to camp? I feel way more comfortable in the left seat personally. As for the emergency arguement, we practise all the emergency's from the left seat and they all can be done. Legally I guess VERT R said it best, get the approval from TC and be done with it.

[Skids Up]

Hang out the door all day moving drills and then have to switch seats to go into a small hole to pick up the boys at the end of the day for a ten minute ride to camp? I feel way more comfortable in the left seat personally.

 

Absolutely! Much safer than switching, especially after you have spent all day in the left side. Started (renewed) this discussion in our company, so hopefully it is as easy as applying for the approval. :up:

 

As a side, everyone states the "unsafe" condition of having a non pilot in the seat behind the duals, but never any stats to back it up. Sure, it COULD happen, but so could a hooked skid, a T/R stike, a M/R blade strike, a ... well you get the point.

 

I'm not sayin' that every blond bimbo should be there, (sorry guys) but a crew leader , and industry individual that has an "awareness" around helicopters, a ... well again you get the point. Never have had anyone grab anything (darn!) that would cause any problems.

 

Plus there are some pilots that I might not want there either!!

[Plinko]

Working for a US operator...we have the STC to fly left seat for all ops in the 205. Personally I prefer to fly crew or ferry from the right. Most of my time in Bell mediums is VR from the left...but I prefer to switch to the right for normal ops.

[VERTICAL REF]

carholme,

 

just to be the devil's advocate here...

 

i have never seen anywhere in a bell medium manual in the normal operations section or emergency procedures section where bell calls for the crew cockpit doors to be jettisoned in flight or while rotors are in motion on the ground.

 

if anyone can find it please post it here.

 

 

last time i heard a 212 crew door was jettisoned in flight it resulted in many death's.

[helicopterjim]

Personally I prefer to fly crew or ferry from the right. Most of my time in Bell mediums is VR from the left...but I prefer to switch to the right for normal ops.

 

I fly 99.9% of the time in the left seat. I do not feel comfortable in the right seat and would not want to encounter any ememrgency whilst in the right seat. I also do emergency training in the left seat.

[Plinko]

The issue is a matter of personal preference... There is no right or wrong answer. For me I prefer to fly crews...skiing...ferry flights from the right. The helicopter is set up to have us in that seat and I feel my total awareness both in and out of the heli is better from the right. It is easy to get too comfortable in the bubble.....I bet you do not wear shoulder straps when you fly left seat. How long do you think you can stay in your seat when the t/r malfunctions. There is a very good chance that you will be forced into the bubble and not be able to reach your throttles... (205 is a bit easier) but if you are in a 212..you would be hard pressed to roll them both off when the sh*t hits the fan. I love the left seat...but also like to minimize risk and stack the odds in my favour.