Endorsement Courses Purchased Buy Your Company?

[koalaa119]

It's been my experience that employers that treat their employees well in the first place, don't have a employee turnover problem and consequently don't feel the need to get into the Training Bond thing.

 

So if a new employer is asking you to sign a bond you might want to do a little more indepth checking of said employer before you commit to anything financially

.

 

 

Trust! Trust ! Trust! It is all about trust. If I am trust worthy, but my employer doesn't share this philosophy then they will have people take advantage. I have worked for 5 different companies in 8 years and have only left because of lay offs or lack of work. I have seen many take advantage of these companies because the companies didn't care about their employees. I so agree with your statement. Some people will take advantage of good companies because they are like that, yes, but I have seen more go the other way so far.

 

My personal stand is that I won't screw a company that I am working for. I have been screwed over by at least three of the companies that I have worked for. I have left all in good standing though. I may not have had a career mentallity with any company that I have worked for, but I have always insured that I am not costing them money when I leave. Would I turn down an endorsement that they asked to give me? Yes I would if I knew that they weren't going to get their moneys worth out of me. I wouldn't sign a bond though.

[Sailbad_the_Sinner]

If I was a owner/CP and I decided to invest time and money for your training, I would expect you to invest some comittment to me. If I invest 20,000, a few days stay at a hotel, some meals etc as part of the training, believe me, you won't be doing crappy work for me (unless you think flying some CEO's around a patch on a sight-seeing tour is crappy work). You'll be pushing a cyclic and not a broom. So what is fair on your part? I don't think I would ever do the "bond" thing but why not a contract? 1 year?...2 year?....Let me try and get my investment back from the customers (of which you are now eligible to fly for BECAUSE of the training).....after the contract is done, if you like your situation, you stay....if not, good luck on your next endevour. And keep in mind...I've just upgraded your ticket, you're adding to your log book, i'm paying you a decent wage and none of this has come out of your pocket. At LEAST show some respect and give me some of your time.....not too much to ask for?

 

SS

[DGP]

All good replies here ...I would never sign a bond to work for anyone just to get another endoresment...I turned down a K1200 endoresment as I said to the guys I was working for...don't waste your money...not interested...their reply was don't you like making the big bucks.I pointed out that, yes the money looked good but I was putting 16 hours a day in to get it...so save your money.I also find that the longer you stay at one place the more you become like a piece of furniture.The guy walking in off the street is treated with more respect....now I can hear the wheels spinning out there all ready...Okay...not all companys are alike but I have seen guys walk in,get the endoresments,work for next to no time,walk out the door,move on to the next company and nobody could care less about it...and those guys are NOT being blacklisted and so they should not...if that is the way certain companies want to work than they should expect NO employee to have company loyalty and without employee's caring ,companies usually do not last long.I have seen a lot of big name outfit go belly up and I would say their dimise was due to their lack of company loyalty which can be lost overnight by pissing off longtime,dedicated,hardworking guys by operating as mentioned....sorry...don't get me started,...suffise to say if guys are willing to put in the time and dedication to an outfit they should not be belittle by having to sign anything for an endoresment and if the company cannot see who is in it for the long haul....well usually they are the ones that don't last and the good employee's are picked up by someone else and so on the cycle goes,unfortunately after awhile a lot of very good people in this industry have left :down:

[jetbox]

Sounds to me if you were working for a good employer, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

We only have your side of the story of course.

[thekingshead]

Very few helicopter operators see Pilots and Engineers as an asset to their companies success, from what I have ever seen. In order for a company to succeed they need to invest. Investing in Operations and Maintenance is the cost of doing buisness. From what I have ever seen once they spend money on you, they figure they own you. It blows my mind how an operator can get away with working crews for weeks or even months on end before they are forced to pay overtime. Then comes the hrs averaging where they get around paying your overtime out. What is going to happen when duty days are set in place for Engineers, what do you think the operators are going to do? They will cry the blues even more about how much its going to cost. For the responsibilites that pilots and Engineers are faced with the earnings in this industry suck! If i drove a bus or workied on a truck I would be making more money. Endorsement courses are the cost of doing business and thats the bottom line, you want someone to work for you they need to be trained on the types of machines you are operating.

[Dude]

What is going to happen when duty days are set in place for Engineers, what do you think the operators are going to do?

 

Exactly what they always do when they see something that they disagree with. They call the HAC, whom in turn lobbies (please read threatens TC) Ottawa who pull in their horns and allow the operators to press on as normal.

 

Have read alot on "bonds" here, and I will tell you from my own experience they are NOT worth the paper the are wrote on. If you feel that you must leave a company and said company threatens you in any way with legal action, allow them to follow up on it, the ruling will be in your favor if you have departed for the right reasons.

 

"Your honor, I did not recieve what was promised me and this organization is operatoring questionably in my proffesional opionion"

 

Case closed. Ask any lawyer.

[Superwrench]

I heard of a young engineer, just licenced was given a course. He left a few months later, to work for another company. The old company tried to take him to court for $10,000. From what i have heard they ended up settling for $3,000 out of court. There was no contract or signed agreement between them. I think that this total BS. You can't make people work for you. The employer needs the course more then you do. I am not saying that i agree with the engineers decision to leave so quickly after his course, the worst that should happen is to get a bad rep for taking courses and running. I sure hope that this is not a sign of the future.

[volition]

Well, at a school i know, an instructor left right after getting there instructor rating from the employer, the employer demanding there 12k back!!

[Skids Up]

...the worst that should happen is to get a bad rep for taking courses and running. I sure hope that this is not a sign of the future.

 

So, how long have you been in the industry?

 

Why didn't he just buy his own course? Then he could move around all he wanted without the worry...

 

Poor start, and he'll probably end up with he puts in. :angry:

[cap]

"Ethics" is one item and "legality" is another.

 

"Ethically", the idea of getting a course paid for by your employer and then leaving shortly afterwards or before the agreed upon period has the potential to cause a person a world of grief. That is, unless that person had a very good, verifiable reason for doing so. Personally, I'm from the "old school" and I don't need a "signed agreement" because "my word is my Bond". I consider such a thing to be a debt that I incurred and to be paid for by "sweat-equity" or "greenbacks".

 

"Legally", such an agreement with an employer in verbal form or as a signed document is not worth the paper it is written-on.

 

"Canadian Case Law" refers to this in a case from 1968 where the employer paid for the CPL license and R/W endorsement of any Engineers on staff who wanted same. An agreement was signed by the employer and the employee and the employee was expected to work for said company for 2 years. IF the employee left the company before the expiry date of that agreement, then the employee was expected to re-emburse the company for monies spent on that course for said employee.

 

Court action ensued and the employee won. The ruling was that entering into any such agreement with an employee was tantamount to a form of "servitude". The fact that the employee did this willingly had no bearing on this because it was ruled that you cannot place yourself into "servitude" nor can others do the same to you, with or without your knowledge. "Servitude" is considered a form of slavery in this country and has been illlegal since 1806. So in effect, it was illegal for the employee to sign that agreement and it was also illegal for the employer to do the same.

 

The ruling has been challenged numerous times throughout the ensuing decades and the resultant rulings have always referred to the 1968 case in their dismissal of the court actions being heard by the Bench.

 

There are also a host of lawyers who are not aware of this and unless they grab their "Case Law" book for reference, then they too remain ignorant.