Endorsement Courses Purchased Buy Your Company?

[thekingshead]

There has been alot of talk in the past about companies who put out the money to train you with a factory course and expect one or two years out of you. No one is very clear on the issue weather or not a company could take you to court with or without a signed contract if you decided to walk or would they just eat the cost and give you a bad name?

My understanding is, in order for you to be able to sign out the aircraft you need the proper training. Therefore it is up to the company to provide the proper training and hope you stick around to fulfill you end of the agreement? Only thing working against you is a black dot on your reputation.

What are your thoughts out there?

[Skids Up]

...weather or not a company could take you to court with or without a signed contract if you decided to walk..

 

If a company promised you 1 or 2 years of work if you went and got a factory course, would you take them to court if they didn't provide you with 1 or 2 years of work?

 

The door swings both ways. Most think that the company is immediatley going to start to treat you like crap and soon as you sign on the dotted line.

 

If you sign, wouldn't you be prepared to put in the time?

 

(I know, I know, there are going to be many that know someone, have had, that heard of someone, who this has happened to so don't start yelling. Not saying it doesn't happen, just flipping the coin over!)

 

It would seem that one would do there homework very carefully, but it also seems that if someone was willing to invest in you, they must have thought you were worth it.

 

Unfortantely, you would then want the best job, top wage and best treatment, or suddendly, they are taking advantage of you.

 

Sorry, if that is what you are afraid of, just keep pounding the streets and find you own work and paying for your own training. Then you can command what ever you want!

 

Good, Bad or Ugly, if someone invests in you, you owe them something. Maybe full part or none, depending on the amount of time you invested back in them.

[thekingshead]

If a company promised you 1 or 2 years of work if you went and got a factory course, would you take them to court if they didn't provide you with 1 or 2 years of work?

 

The door swings both ways. Most think that the company is immediatley going to start to treat you like crap and soon as you sign on the dotted line.

 

If you sign, wouldn't you be prepared to put in the time?

 

(I know, I know, there are going to be many that know someone, have had, that heard of someone, who this has happened to so don't start yelling. Not saying it doesn't happen, just flipping the coin over!)

 

It would seem that one would do there homework very carefully, but it also seems that if someone was willing to invest in you, they must have thought you were worth it.

 

Unfortantely, you would then want the best job, top wage and best treatment, or suddendly, they are taking advantage of you.

 

Sorry, if that is what you are afraid of, just keep pounding the streets and find you own work and paying for your own training. Then you can command what ever you want!

 

Good, Bad or Ugly, if someone invests in you, you owe them something. Maybe full part or none, depending on the amount of time you invested back in them.

 

 

Low wages and longer working hours, if your a sucker they will treat you like one!

[Skids Up]

Low wages and longer working hours, if your a sucker they will treat you like one!

 

Not sure what this means. Has this happened to you? It should have been specified in the contract/agreement/understanding if you had one.

 

So let's say that someone offers you a medium endorsement if you will work for them for 2 years. You have enough time/experience and attitude, that they think you will be able to handle the medium world, and are willing to invest the time and effort to get you endorsed.

 

Rather than the "bare minimum" endorsement, (because you still have the potential to run into problems), they invest 10 hours in it. They'll want you to have a bit of long line time, bucket time, mountain time, and what not, (cause it is different from the 206/astar/R44 that you have been flying) to feel sure that you do the job to the standard they expect, and that they want to offer their customers.

 

(Now, I'm just guessing numbers so react accordingly).

 

Let’s say, that's an investment of $20,000.00 if YOU had to buy it. Then they have to give you annual training, PPC's, maybe additional long line training, TC costs and what not, so maybe another 8 - 10 hours in the course of the 2 years.

 

Tack on another $18,000.00 - $20,000.00.

 

We’re almost up to $40,000.00 for those of you keeping track...

 

So that works out to $20,000.00 per year they have invested in you, so you can bring your wealth of knowledge and ability, into their operation and demand, as I said earlier, the best hours, the best job, and the best pay, right? Because otherwise someone is taking advantage of you.

 

Sorry, but just because you heard someone at XYZ Helicopters was earning $200.00, $300.00 or more per hour, (and so why aren't I worth that much?), at this stage of the game, it’s not likely going to be you.

 

Should you have to work more hours? More than what? My typical day in the summer is a 14-hour duty day, for 30 on and then 10 off. Does that suck? Sometimes. But usually with weather days and things, (sometimes no work, and now that sucks) it’s not every day 14 hours, but if it was, then it would be, because that is what is expected.

 

So how many more hours are you going to work? (Be careful, TC might be reading this.)

 

Lower pay? Wait a minute, didn't someone, oh that’s right, the company, just give you (invested) $20,000.00 a year MORE to fly mediums. Wow, that sucks.

 

Am I a sucker? I guess I probably am in some people’s minds. But that is what I choose to do, and I look at the company I’m with and know, there are a lot of other benefits that don’t come in the pay envelope.

 

So I guess it how you look at what you get. It just seems to me that I would have to make a whole lot more money, if I had to invest in myself the kind of money the company does.

 

Is it the cost of doing business? Sure it is. But each year, the company invests a lot of money in me, and I appreciate it. Will I ever leave? Who knows. If we are both happy, not much reason to, is there?

 

I guess maybe I’m just lucky. I brought a lot of time and experience to the company when they hired me, and maybe that kept them from treating me poorly. Maybe it was my attitude. Maybe they were just nice guys. (Oh sorry, they are employers so not allowed to be nice.) Maybe they thought I’d already earned it, I don’t know. Maybe it was because I experience it all back when there wasn’t any rules, and you went out in May and came back in September or October.

 

Things may not be perfect, but they are better.

 

So have a look in the mirror, and if someone thinks you are worth $40,000.00 over the next 2 years, then thank them for it, and do what you can to make this industry even better yet.

 

And to get back where we started, that ain’t by taking an endorsement from someone, and running… :down:

[ray]

Legally, you don't owe the company anything if they send you on a type course.

 

However, if you do decide to quit, word will get out for other employers to not invest in you. (People between companies do talk.)

 

You've also burned your bridges.

 

You don't get treated like a sucker just because you got sent on a course.

If anything, your wages go up.

 

The attitude I'm seeing here is like that of an individual that just got licenced, then wants to be at the same salary level as someone with over 10 years experience.

 

There's only one way to pay your dues and get the experience. Put the time in. The money will follow.

[Cole]

Well, I obviously dont have any experience in this field, but the same thing comes up in other industries. One guy at work showed up and got his lifttruck stuff, then it turned out that he only did that to get another job. Needless to say the new employer was informed and he wasnt hired anywhere

 

All I can say is, honesty pays. If someone feels screwed they will make it known, I know that this is a pretty tight knit community and if you screw someone, you are going to get screwed much worse back.

 

Cole

[Reddog]

It's been my experience that employers that treat their employees well in the first place, don't have a employee turnover problem and consequently don't feel the need to get into the Training Bond thing.

 

So if a new employer is asking you to sign a bond you might want to do a little more indepth checking of said employer before you commit to anything financially.

[lamanated]

there is one excemption to the training repayment etc.If you are a civil servant then the public service agreement says the employer can seek reimbursement of trainig monies if you quit..

[Elvis]

At my previous employer a engineer came back with his 205 endorsement then quit to work for another operator.

 

After that nobody got a course with out signing an agreement that they would have to reimburse the company if you quit in the next 2 years (prorated)

[Blackmac]

Skids-Up;

 

Agree with your post, but I have a tendency to come at it from a different direction.

 

In the IFR market, offshore mainly the costs of training is probably along the same lines as Airlines.

 

(this is were I added your one quote)

Is it the cost of doing business? Sure it is. But each year, the company invests a lot of money in me, and I appreciate it. Will I ever leave? Who knows. If we are both happy, not much reason to, is there?

 

In the off-shore market the cost of doing business is incorporated in the monthly and hourly charges and plus the fact that most off-shore markets are unionized this has more of an impact.

 

VFR operators in Canada have been underselling there services for years and the only way that is going to change is the industry has to increase it's hourly and monthly charges to incorporate all realistic charges and long overdue salary increases for all individuals.

 

The off-shore people are not suffering, including the client.

 

It is about time the VFR market started getting there act together and charged the client the realistic cost of renting a helicopter in this day and age.

 

IMHO

 

Don