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Industry Self-management

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I'm amazed at so few opinions being generated by this post. I generated more adverse comments when I tried to form an association, then everybody had a negative idea's.


Now you are going to let the FOX control the henhouse, get with it, let your idea's be known or do you actually give a shyte.


Imagine the HAC controlling the were with all, of all the operators.




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Could not agree more with you Don....yes, SMS "is" a reality, and as I said earlier, "not" with H-AOC.

Actually it does not surprise me that the opinions have been far and few between here on this thread. As many as there are with flight crews would like to see changes within the industry, there are many more that are to lazy, selfish and or complacent to do anything about it.

Let someone else take care of it, or if I ignore it, it will go away seems to be the common theme these days.

As I have said in the past.....to many independent agenda's, and not enough team concept....... :huh:

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I tried to find their feasibility study in the HAC site, but had no luck. Can someone steer me in the right direction?


Hey cotter pin rl: http://www.h-a-c.ca/Industry_Self-mgt_Report.pdf


Let us know what you think.


I was trying to get an invite to HAC last week from one of the directors and he informed me that I would have to pay just like evrybody else.


He also indicated that my presence was not required as the pilots and engineers were well represented by HAC. Go figure, an association for the lowly ones, I just hope all you guys were aware that HAC has your well being at heart.


There is no comparison between CBAA and HAC and if you bother to read and actually understand the manifesto or feasibilty study of HAC you will also understand that you will have the responsibilty (as a pilot or engineer) to report any mal feasance of any other companies, perceived, operating methods or procedures to H-AOC. Shades of communism.


The days of the larger, or any operator, reporting another operator in bad faith, causing unending problems. Just another way to beat the competition.


Engineers and pilots be aware that the company you are employed by will not stand by you, should you be brought to court for making a report against another company.


Remember this is an owners club, nothing to do with employees.


The employees of all companies should belong to an association to represent their views the same as HAC does in the Safety Management Sytem.


Employees are the final link in the chain for implementation of any Safety Management System.



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One of the interesting things about the origin of the is thread is that Mr. Jenner has not bothered to come back and offer any comments to any of the responses.

A blanket offer to take over regulation of the helicopter industry with as little explanation as offered by Mr. Jenner is self serving to say the least.


If anyone here is reading the testimony of Merlin Preuss at the Bill C-6 committee hearings in Ottawa, you will note the concern of members of that committee, that Preuss has used pressure tactics against members of a particular organization who is arguing against any form of self-regulation imposed by Transport Canada, (read SMS). Preuss is being re-called when the house opens to answer many more questions including those raised by the committee members.


For those of you unaware, Preuss is the head of Transport Canada in this country.


Last week, a train de-railed just north of my home in North Eastern Ontario and dumped 150,000 liters of suphuric acid into one of the main rivers. The main complaint by the unions concerning this accident as well as other rail accidents in the country are due to lack of oversight by Transport Canada. This is exactly the same thing that is happening with all forms of transport in this country under the rule of Transport Canada.


Because HAC is indeed, self serving to the interests of the owners of the companies in the helicopter industry, it will be a moot point down the line if Bill C-6 is allowed to pass as it will change the face of the industry. How many of us have given any real thought to what that face may be?


At present in the helicopter business or any aviation for that matter, if ten operators get together to try and raise rates, they will all agree but when they walk out the door, one or two of the weasels will immediately break ranks and lowball as usual to try and get the volume of work. And it will get worse under self regulation as those weasels will now have less to worry about as far as regulatory oversight is concerned and everything will suffer. The pay rates for crews, the pressures on crews to fly in pissy wx, overgross, with poor maintenance, abuses of duty times, engineers pressured to get the job done or we'll get some other low paid guy to do the work. etc. etc. etc.


For those of you who feel that Transport Canada should be the determining agency in how our business is run in the future, have at it.


For the others, it is sad to say but like every other great change in our business, when are you going to do something about it? If history is correct, I am only happy that I am on the back side of my career.






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Portions of Bill C-6 for your info.


Clause 12 introduces new sections (5.31 to 5.38) that contain provisions relating to two of the more significant purposes of this bill, which are to:


designate aeronautical industry organizations to oversee their members’ operations in low-risk areas; and


prescribe the management systems that they must implement to conduct their oversight.

By delegating certain oversight powers to these industry organizations, Transport Canada hopes to focus its limited resources on the higher-risk segments of the industry. The provisions intended to allow for this change are as follows:


A new section – 5.31 – authorizes the Minister of Transport to designate and certify organizations and describes their subsequent powers, duties and functions. These may include establishing standards of certification and rules governing aeronautical activities, as well as monitoring compliance.


A new section – 5.32 – establishes that an applicant who is unsuccessful in obtaining or renewing a certificate, approval or authorization from a designated organization may apply to the Transport Tribunal for a review of decisions respecting technical safety and security but not for non-payment of charges. The section describes the Tribunal process to be followed, resulting either in confirmation of the decision of the designated organization or referral of the matter to the Minister for consideration. The Tribunal process for certificates awarded by the designated organization is similar to the one currently in place for appeals of decisions respecting Canadian aviation documents.


A new section – 5.33 – provides that the applicant may appeal the Tribunal’s decision only if he or she attends the review hearing or has a good reason for missing it. The Tribunal can either dismiss the appeal or refer it to the Minister for consideration.


A new section – 5.34 – states that the Minister can confirm, revise or rescind the designated organization’s decision in the interest of aeronautical safety and security.


A new section – 5.35 – allows the designated organization to recover the costs of exercising its powers, duties and functions through charges.


A new section – 5.36 – requires the designated organization to consult with affected persons when it wishes to establish or revise standards, rules or charges. The information must be published on the Internet and print copies must be available in the organization’s offices.


A new section – 5.37 – allows affected parties to ask the Minister to review published charges. The Minister’s decision is final and he or she may direct the designated organization to amend the charge and refund any overpayment.


A new section – 5.38 – grants the Governor in Council the regulation-making powers required to implement sections 5.31 to 5.37. The powers include prescribing the criteria a designated organization must meet and the charging principles with which it must comply. Regulations under this section will be developed in consultation with stakeholders through the Canadian Aviation Regulation Advisory Council.


Happy reading, Don

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Helicopter Engineers and Pilots Association, Canada is still listed as a non-profit organisation and could possibly be re-born as an oversite entity and probably a far better safety related organisation than HAC.




If somebody wants to assume command, the structure is still there.


I personally will only act as a consultant.


There is still time to get something in place.


Cheers, Don

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So in fact these other jurisdictions that have adopted this type of management system, a self-governing one in essence--who have passed the regulations--have had good success with this. Have they had a lot of self-reporting?


Here are the meeting minutes from when Capt Daniel Maurino (Coordinator, Flight Safety and Human Factors, International Civil Aviation Organization) was questioned by the Committee:


Evidence - Wednesday, March 21, 2007

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Well folks, you better decide what you want because you will have to live with the outcome!! Just remember that the HAC represents tihe interests of the operators, not necessarilly the pilots & engineers (although they say the do). If this proposal for the HAC to take over administration of TC responsibilities regarding helicopter operations, the result will definitely be in favour of the operators and not necessarily the industry as a whole. I can remember one operator who was upset that apprentices had to do 48 months in order to get their AME license instead of the old 36 months, and his reason was that he wanted someone to sign out his ships sooner. Not to mention the idea that student pilots log all time that the engine is running towards the 100 hours for a commercial license instead of skid off to skids on time.


Just my two cents worth.

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